If You Don't Believe God is Going to Save All Mankind . . . (after life, Deuteronomy)
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I believe that we are all accountable for what we do and God is not mocked what everyone sows they will reap and it applies to everyone - believer and unbeliever alike, and all of the dead will be raised by the Spirit after judgement.
Which judgement are you speaking of here?
The resurrection of the dead and living, in the Full Preterist paradigm has already occcured.
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I believe you are cutting the gospel into pieces - taking pieces out that you want to apply to believers and putting our spiritual rebirth/regeneration into our own hands -
Actually I am not...I am rightly diving the word, so that what pertains to what is consistent and harmonized. with each other.
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The things that Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the judgement that was coming to the Jews in 70AD, are transferred directly and literally and the result is a distorted message of believe and be eternally saved (to me it seems the physical is mixed with the spiritual message and distorts it) What I see in scripture is that God is sovereign and just as we have no control over our physical birth we also have no control over our spiritual birth.
The corporate “Body” language of Paul in which it is often confused with an individual Body understanding. This study of the Corporate nature of the Body is a challenging one but if one will keep the 1 Cor 12 discussion of the Body Corporate in Christ in view it may help clear up some confusion.
Think of the Old Corporate Body of Israel in the same manner. Adam was the corporate head of the Body of Death and he was a type of Christ in that regards (Rom 5:15). Thus Israel’s old corporate body of Death and Humiliation is being fashioned into Christ Body of Glory (the church). Israel could not achieve life with God except through the redemption brought through Christ in His dying for them. Adam failed in this venture while Christ succeeded and thus became the head of the Body of the living, His church, and thus, God is all in all with them, the church.
The simplest way to describe what happened is that Israel was a covenant body of believers whom lived under Adams “death” shroud of separation from God due to the ineptitude of the works of the flesh. Even though they were under condemnation they were also under the promise to be redeemed from that subjugation.
At the Cross we have the works of Christ firmly established through His Death and Resurrection. But Christ right before His Death and Resurrection declared that there would be a transition period in which He would bring about the final demise of the Old Law by displaying for all to see that He was indeed given all authority over that Old Covenant Body by declaring its impending destruction and judgment. This transition period of time begin with Pentecost and ended with the destruction of the Temple and removal of the sacrificial system administered by Old Covenant Priest thus verifying Christ prophecy to everyone whether faithful or not.
During this transition period the Jews as the older brother were invited to come in to the wedding party of Christ before it was too late and the doors were closed. This language simply means that they were given the opportunity to enter into the promised land of God’s Sabbath Rest or to die in the wilderness. Those who choose to come in during these 40 years were called the faithful remnant.
Those who disobeyed had judgment and wrath come upon them like a thief in the night as Christ declared would occur within that generation. This judgment occurred with many Jews dying in the wilderness in the old city of Jerusalem and those that did not die physically by the sword of the Romans were permanently removed from God’s covenant people at this time. They were the Goats of the sheep and the Goats who were banished away from the face of God as aptly illustrated in 2 Thessalonians below. Relief came to those saints as Paul promised and Covenant removal occurred with the disobedient.
2 Th 1:5-10 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering-- (6) since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (7) and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (8) in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (9) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, (10) when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
This is a fulfillment of Dan 12:1, 2, 6, 7 in which the resurrection of the corporate “Dead” in Adam/Israel would be raised to stand in the Presence of the Lord by right of their faith in Jesus Christ. This New Covenant could not contain the apostate Jews and would be cleansed and purified of these by Covenant removal.
That is the short version of what resurrection of the “dead” was all about and how the corporate body of Christ was fully established and consummated as the New Covenant Body.
Paul does not refer to individual bodies being raised as bodies coming out of their physical graves but is speaking of the metaphorical application of the language defining the spiritual dead that we find in Dan, Ezekiel, Isaiah and other OT scriptures pointing to this event of corporate resurrection.
Of course what many futurists fail to recognize is that the individual person is still required to embrace this resurrected life to share in its glories. This is nothing new except that as Preterist we take hold of the full meaning of what occurred historically and embrace that great event from the Cross to the Parousia of Christ.
We simply see that the Body of Christ has been consummated and is not awaiting a future day for that to occur. No longer our loved ones and friends in Christ have to wait in the dust of the earth waiting for Christ to appear to be raptured to be with Christ and God forever. We, of the corporate persuasion, realize that at our physical demise that we continue in the arms of our loving Lord not having to await a deep sleep thousands or millions of years, or eons as some put it, to come in to His Presence.
The Bible teaches that His "soul" was not left in Hades/Sheol (Psa. 16:10; Acts 2:31; 13:35), nor would His "flesh" (physical body) see "corruption."
That Jesus 'self-same' body was resurrected, with the empty tomb as the everlasting testimony to the fact that He is alive (Rev. 1:18).
The hope and expectation for believers who lived during the transition period between the Cross and A.D. 70 was that of being "like him" in the sense of experiencing the fullness and 'likeness' of His "glorious" nature (Phil. 3:21). The determination of that "glorious" likeness for believers was taking place within the context of the transformation of the ages, out of the Old Covenant mode of existance and into the New Covenant mode of existence. The principle is that, in order to change the man, it is necessary to change the world by which man is determined. Resurrection life is inclusive of being resurrected out from the world of "sin and death" as determined through Adam, and being resurrection into the world of "life and righteousness" as determined by Christ.
Jesus entered into the family of Adam and further into the Law Covenant mode of existence being "born of a woman, born under the Law" (Gal. 4:4). Therefore, the life, death, burial and resurrection of Christ was in accordance with the terms of the "world" into which He had been born and because of His identity as Israel's Messiah. The shedding of His precious blood accomplished the redemptive purpose of God in order to provide the possibility for sinful humanity to enter into a New Covenant and thereby receive the forgiveness of their sins.
His physical resurrection was proof positive of His Messianic identity in fulfillment of what had been predicted was to occur. By His physical resurrection Jesus was vindicated for any possibility of having sinned in any way according to the terms of the world into which He had been born. Covenantally Jesus had been "cut off from the land of the living" (Isa. 53:7-12), having died for "His generation" and was resurrected in fulfillment of the prophecy into the New Covenant mode of existence whereby He would have "offspring" as believers entered into the realm where life and righteousness became a reality.
Most people miss the prophetic significance of both the death and the resurrection of Christ and the redemptive pagentry that took place as a result. Simply keeping the focus on the nature of His actual "flesh" misses the point with respect to the resurrection. The promise that His "flesh would not see corruption" indicates futher than the effect of "sin and death" which leads to "corruption" (Gal. 6:7, 8), did not apply in His case and therefore He was vindicated as Messiah by His resurrection from the dead (Rom. 1:4).
No other person was ever promised that their "flesh would not see corruption"--a fact ingored by those who insist on a physical resurrection of the dead for believers who "in Christ" actually "never die" (John 11:25, 26). The arrival of the Parousia in A.D. 70 brought fallen humanity out of the state of corruption that belongs to "Adam" and were transformed into "Christ" where there is freedom from the bondage to "corruption." Believers "in Christ" were vindicated and received "life and immortality" in Him.
Blessings to you. If you need further help on understanding the complete work of salvation in regards to the ROTD, always ask.
To me it seems that (as we all can and do) you are inserting your beliefs, ie preterism, into the passages of scripture and limiting what the passages are actually saying. I do agree and believe that the message of the whole scriptures should fit together like a glove rightly dividing the physical shadows with the spiritual realities.
From what I can gather what you are saying is that eternal salvation and spiritual rebirth is only open to some and not all - that Christ only died for some and not all -- it is only open to some Israelites who believed and so are accepted into a corpoate body and not open to the non Israelites that knew nothing about this and also only open to those who hear the spoken message passing through the religion of christianity and only open to those who decipher the message and choose to become a christian then God will regenerate them because of their acceptance.
I realise that there is a lot I just glimpse and don't understand totally but I trust God to reveal to me what he wants to and at the time that he wants to.
I agree that 70AD was the physical judgement that came to the physical Jews and removed them as the covenant people and it was a type - just like the physical judgement that happened to the physical sodom and gomorrah they suffered olam/aionian judgment ....as nations they were evil and they suffered the national judgment for it. I also believe that every individual person will be judged for their own actions in the flesh based on their understandings and on how much they have received
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Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
and then will live according to God in the spirit.
I believe that these verses high light the difference between the physical which also incorporates the soul, and the spirit which is a regeneration of the soul 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
In the previous chapter of Peter I believe that
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
I think this passage has types in them connecting the segements together
The gospel is Jesus death in the flesh and resurrection in the spirit - he has preached the gospel to all. All will be baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire ----- buried with him in death). He was not preaching just to those in Noahs time It is a type/shadow of the spiritual baptism into Jesus death, crucifying the lusts of the flesh.
The kingdom is open to all, but not all will come into it. This is the message of the kingdom, and this kingdom is not of this world, it is spiritual, and that is what Christ came to, first, reclaim what was lost in Adam...complete communion with God, unadulterated and faithful, walking in the spirit, the kingdom, and secondly, which is paralleled with the former, the establishment of that kingdom on earth. 70 AD and the destruciton of Jerusalem/temple was that event, although occuring in our physical world, it was the consummation of the spritual kingdom that had been prophesied countless times, old and new testaments.
There is no such thing as another age/aion. That last and final age, the age to come, we are living in right now, in the kingdom, spiritual and physical, in Heaven and on earth, in the church. This is where Christ reclaimed the kingdom from the power of Death, sin and the devil. The Garden of Eden has already be re-established in the church, in our hearts, where God is NOW all in all.
This kingdom will undoubtedly increase and increase, this is God's desire, and He will perform this, but during that time and until that time, the pruning will continue with mankind, until all mankind come to serve Him. This has nothing to do with Post Mortem events, but has ONLY to do with what transpires in life, the Physical/Natural state of mankind. His church, and His presence is in us, the church, and there are people that reject this truth, and will suffer that rejection, but is that really the point? The point is that this kingdom will continue to increase beyond our comprehension of measurement....is this Prophetic? No it isn't, for all prophecy concerning Christ and His work with salvation, redemption and consummation is complete, starting with the cross and ending with the abolishment of the Old Kingdom which was in temple worship in the first century (Dan 9:24-27)
Seal up vision and the prophet. This work is done, and what is left is the purpose and will of God and His work with the church, God directly reconciling mankind to Him through His presence in the church.
It is a work in process, but it is no way prophetic, because that RECONCILIATION has been completed. God is now all in all.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 12-21-2009 at 05:32 PM..
Mat 15:24 and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
Not all of Israel was lost sheep...the word lost makes a comparison that there was a remnant of lost sheep in the house of Israel...else He would have said that He came to save the house of Israel...
Reconciling does not mean reconciled. One is present tense, and the other is past tense. One is active, the other is finished.
So how can it be active, yet still be finished?
The debt was paid for, 2000 years ago. Acknowleging that the debt was paid for, and living like it has been paid for, is what begins the process of being a child of God, a joint heir with Christ Jesus.
Hense the Prodical Son parable.
To the father, the son was dead, until he came back home.
Here's something...it says LOST, something lost indicates that it was previously owned at one time and then was lost...
Says who? I don't believe in hell either so how can I go there? It's all fiction to me.
The fact is, just because you do not believe in something does not make it not exist...it is not by the power of your will that things exist or do not exist...that would make you God...
Since being on this forum, I have prayed and mediated on God's word . . .but I believe the message of scripture is clearer when we line up all the fence posts . . . not just taking a few verses here and there.
As painful as it may be . . . .the theme, running trhough the New Testament, and coming out of Jesus's mouth is that NOT ALL will be saved.
Therefore IF anyone is IN Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
He came to save the lost...that would indicate a specific group of people, if not, then there would be no need for the coparative word..Lost, not Lost...
He came to save the lost...that would indicate a specific group of people, if not, then there would be no need for the coparative word..Lost, not Lost...
You are correct. In this, Christ, He united Israel, that is, the church...Jew and Gentile.
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