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No one is accusing. When I started this post I said I was once a Universalist. I stated clear scripture and I could have done more that justify Satan is an enemy and there are those for destruction. I have also clearly stated there are Universalists on this very board who by the very nature of believeing it have gone to other such thoughts like Unitarianism which is a logical progression.
I don't believe so - the staples of believing in God is our redemption through His son Jesus, not an open armed, anything goes welcome to our carnality.
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Originally Posted by Aschultz73
I was accused of being more Unitarian than Universal, but I have always believed in Christ. If this is the very definition of the difference between the two than did I not fall under the definition of Universal?
I agree - that is the difference to my knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
The problem with Universalism is it doesnt square with the complete Bible. Many Universalists here have discounted the Old Testament as fable and myth. When establishing a theory of reconciliation the point to the teachings of Paul. So basically if I use the Old Testament its myth and fairy take, if I use the red words of Christ, it's point to Paul. Now this may indeed be an accusation, but go to my post in red letters and tell me where you find reconciliation.
I'm not sure I follow about discounting the OT, but I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
My comment on Jesus not being a disciple of Paul, but Paul of Jesus was not touched either yet it seems. Jesus has primacy or does Universalism really not accept Christ? This is an honest question. Paul looks to Jesus not Jesus to Paul, and Jesus Himself declares He will cast out. Again read my red letters. I could in fact post more such words, but that is another time.
It's combining the "casting out" of Jesus (as you called it), and the explanation that Paul gave as to where the problem is = our flesh, the old man, the carnal nature.
As Paul explained, the Adamic root in us will not be defeated until it is dead - crucified - and that coincides with Jesus' command to take up our cross; why? To kill the old nature - I believe it's also called the soul, which consists of the carnal mind (God's enemy) and our emotions (the sense of "self") which are turned inward since the Fall.
If this nature is to die, to be destroyed, while our spirits are united with Him (which is the essence of the Christian life, agreed?) then God can pour out His wrath on the person without completely destroying him/her (which again is the essence of the Christian life, agreed?). Many see 1 Cor 3:15 as pertaining to believers only (If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.), but if all will bow to Him as Lord, will they be exempt from the same fire?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
I have seen so much contradiction in Universalism on this board and around the internet, but when it comes to the so called Orthodox fundamentals I find little if any contradiction.
I understand. Because it's easy to compromise the Christian life, you'll see a lack of depth in many people - uni's included.
I don't believe so - the staples of believing in God is our redemption through His son Jesus, not an open armed, anything goes welcome to our carnality.
I agree - that is the difference to my knowledge.
I'm not sure I follow about discounting the OT, but I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.
It's combining the "casting out" of Jesus (as you called it), and the explanation that Paul gave as to where the problem is = our flesh, the old man, the carnal nature.
As Paul explained, the Adamic root in us will not be defeated until it is dead - crucified - and that coincides with Jesus' command to take up our cross; why? To kill the old nature - I believe it's also called the soul, which consists of the carnal mind (God's enemy) and our emotions (the sense of "self") which are turned inward since the Fall.
If this nature is to die, to be destroyed, while our spirits are united with Him (which is the essence of the Christian life, agreed?) then God can pour out His wrath on the person without completely destroying him/her (which again is the essence of the Christian life, agreed?). Many see 1 Cor 3:15 as pertaining to believers only (If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.), but if all will bow to Him as Lord, will they be exempt from the same fire?
I understand. Because it's easy to compromise the Christian life, you'll see a lack of depth in many people - uni's included.
Now see this is a more intelligent response and for this I thank you. I have another post coming, but I have two tests to take today. I have some scripture I am going to post on a topic and I ask when you see it that you consider it and reply.
I see your points, but I still ask the question of Holiness. Think on this one a bit for my next post. Because honestly this to me is the heart of the matter.
You sound like that you do not have faith to believe that God works in a man both to will and to do of his good pleasure , that he completes that which he has started, that he is the author and finisher of our faith.
The truth is not one of us has repented on our own accord but we have been lead and caused by the goodness and kindness of God Romans 2 verse 4. You see it's the goodness and kindness of God that arrests a mans heart and turns him in the way of righteousness, without that we would all still up to our old antics.
If the Lord said to me "Camps you can live how you want and i will still be all in all to you" , i would say it won't be so Lord, complete that which you have started in me , you have placed a hunger and desire in me which no pleasure of this world can compare with it , draw me after you and let us run together .
I disagree. I did not care about God and God did not arm wrestle me into caring. I chose to come to Christ. I can honestly say this with full authority I could just as easily go out today and commit adultery ten times over as I did before. But because I see what Christ did for me I freely chose to stop submitting to temptations (however no one is perfect and sinless all the time I do recognize this).
To conclude that God works you like a puppet is a bit simplistic. In that respect one could say God made Satan a sinner to create this situation. Scripture does not support that, but by your logic it could be assumed. Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega, but you can freely chose to sin. I know this I deal with it in Christ everyday. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
When you contend that people will have no choice but to repent it figures in arm wrestling one to submission. I can tell you this that not one person arm wrestles me. I recognized my sinful state I did of my own choice. I confessed Jesus as my God and Saviour of my own choice. I recognize that by His death and His resurrection and by now other penalty like an 1000 year torment or a comparable form of Purgatory can I be saved.
On a side note the whole idea of a 1000 year torment seems very Orthodox to me. It sounds just like Purgatory, but with different means to an end. I have seen alot of Universalists point this 1000 year idea out.
I have alot of faith in God or I would not be here. What I do not have is faith in is Universalism in it's many forms I am seeing. If you want to go to the core doctrine of Christ then fine, but once you step past that into Universalism I must diverge. Your views were mine. I professed Christ and felt all could be saved and go to heaven. Yet an in depth reading of scripture points to otherwise. This will be in my next post.
What you are not seeing as that there are a number of people who use Unitarian concepts and claim Universalism. As I was accused of being Unitarian in making this post I submit to you that Universalism has led many on this board to intermix the two. Of course there are some who claim pure Universalism, but they also bear the weight of their teaching. Many on here profess Universalism and those who reply here are their champions, but they do not concur with what their champions say.
Also do not be so quick to discount hell. To often we say what it is not than what it is. To conclude that hell is not as forever denies scripture. Also numerous quotes by Jesus himself confirm its eternal existance. They idea of oblivion or a cease to exist is no where supported by any scripture. It is by nature the complete opposite of what Universalists claim. Either all are saved by Universalism or many will cease to exist. That God is a Holy God who will cast out to an outer darkness is repeated in scripture over and over. No where does cease to exist happen.
Scripture definately teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer eternal destruction (as in 2Thessalonians 1:9) or eternal punishment (as in Matthew 25:26) the same way that the elect experience eternal redemption (as in Hebrews 9:12). The elect do not do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is "eternal in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the wicked do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are destroyed forever, but they are not forever being destroyed!!! These are just my beliefs based on hell and eternal punishment. Sometimes I have a problem sleeping in broad daylight. LOL
I disagree. I did not care about God and God did not arm wrestle me into caring. I chose to come to Christ. I can honestly say this with full authority I could just as easily go out today and commit adultery ten times over as I did before. But because I see what Christ did for me I freely chose to stop submitting to temptations (however no one is perfect and sinless all the time I do recognize this).
To conclude that God works you like a puppet is a bit simplistic. In that respect one could say God made Satan a sinner to create this situation. Scripture does not support that, but by your logic it could be assumed. Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega, but you can freely chose to sin. I know this I deal with it in Christ everyday. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
When you contend that people will have no choice but to repent it figures in arm wrestling one to submission. I can tell you this that not one person arm wrestles me. I recognized my sinful state I did of my own choice. I confessed Jesus as my God and Saviour of my own choice. I recognize that by His death and His resurrection and by now other penalty like an 1000 year torment or a comparable form of Purgatory can I be saved.
On a side note the whole idea of a 1000 year torment seems very Orthodox to me. It sounds just like Purgatory, but with different means to an end. I have seen alot of Universalists point this 1000 year idea out.
I have alot of faith in God or I would not be here. What I do not have is faith in is Universalism in it's many forms I am seeing. If you want to go to the core doctrine of Christ then fine, but once you step past that into Universalism I must diverge. Your views were mine. I professed Christ and felt all could be saved and go to heaven. Yet an in depth reading of scripture points to otherwise. This will be in my next post.
I agree that we did not care about God but in coming to him on our own choosing this i totally disagree with .
How do you first get around the fact that Jesus said No Man Can Come to Me, Except the Father Which Hath Sent Me Draw Him.
How do you get around the scriptures that say
That God works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure
He will complete that which He started in us.
He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
I wasn't questioning how much faith you had but the faith you have in God being able to conform His children to his image through what he stated above.
If you want to take credit for you coming to faith that is fine by me.
Interesting considering a thief died right next to Christ on a cross and Christ told him he would be in paradise.
That's a whole other debate...
Quote:
Wordly implications mean nothing to a sinner if they dont care about eternity. In fact knowing I can be saved or reconciled anyway can wholly lead to not caring about what happens. A person can smoke and not get cancer. A person can have a destroyed family life and continue to commit adultery happily. A person can take drugs and not care that they just wanna get to that next fix. To simply list off things and think that people know they are consequences is a bit simplistic. I have worked in places where people do the very things you call out and continue to do them in a non chalant matter with no worry.
Perhaps you are missing the point. Do you think they are better off than you? Would you rather be in their shoes? There are always consequences. Even if they don't get cancer. There is always something. God is not mocked.
Scripture definately teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer eternal destruction (as in 2Thessalonians 1:9) or eternal punishment (as in Matthew 25:26) the same way that the elect experience eternal redemption (as in Hebrews 9:12). The elect do not do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is "eternal in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the wicked do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are destroyed forever, but they are not forever being destroyed!!! These are just my beliefs based on hell and eternal punishment. Sometimes I have a problem sleeping in broad daylight. LOL
GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8
Revelation 20:10 '...where the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
Conscious torment forever and ever.
Keep in mind that those unbelievers who are on the earth when Christ returns (Matthew 25:41) are thrown into the lake of fire, not Hades, but the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet a full thousand years before the Great White Throne judgment, and those unbelievers who are now in Hades (Luke 16) are currently in conscious torment and after the Millennium they will be resurrected into bodies designed for the lake of fire where they will spend eternity. Revelation 20:11-15.
I disagree. I did not care about God and God did not arm wrestle me into caring. I chose to come to Christ. I can honestly say this with full authority I could just as easily go out today and commit adultery ten times over as I did before. But because I see what Christ did for me I freely chose to stop submitting to temptations (however no one is perfect and sinless all the time I do recognize this).
To conclude that God works you like a puppet is a bit simplistic. In that respect one could say God made Satan a sinner to create this situation. Scripture does not support that, but by your logic it could be assumed. Yes, God is the Alpha and Omega, but you can freely chose to sin. I know this I deal with it in Christ everyday. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
When you contend that people will have no choice but to repent it figures in arm wrestling one to submission. I can tell you this that not one person arm wrestles me. I recognized my sinful state I did of my own choice. I confessed Jesus as my God and Saviour of my own choice. I recognize that by His death and His resurrection and by now other penalty like an 1000 year torment or a comparable form of Purgatory can I be saved.
On a side note the whole idea of a 1000 year torment seems very Orthodox to me. It sounds just like Purgatory, but with different means to an end. I have seen alot of Universalists point this 1000 year idea out.
I have alot of faith in God or I would not be here. What I do not have is faith in is Universalism in it's many forms I am seeing. If you want to go to the core doctrine of Christ then fine, but once you step past that into Universalism I must diverge. Your views were mine. I professed Christ and felt all could be saved and go to heaven. Yet an in depth reading of scripture points to otherwise. This will be in my next post.
And on that note I must add that I have been dealing with a brother who is currently in prison. He basically believes the same thing that the universalists/unitarians believe on this forum. The fruit of his life is proof that his belief system is in error.. He has no regard for sin, basically is in prison because of atrocities commited against innocent people, yet he constantly boasts about us all dying a being together someday. He gets hostile with me when I mention Hell or two different places when we die.
He talks to the dead, converses with mediums and believes that aliens are controlling him. He disregards the truth that is in scripture although he says he believes in Jesus...I hear from him what I hear on this forum in regards to beliefs. Since I have been dealing with him for several years I truly discern through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God that he is totally deceived from the enemy. I believe that the aliens are demons and the people (dead people) that he is contacting are demonic. He has a chain around his ankle and he is not only in an earthly prison but is in a spiritual prison as well.
Bottom line.. this belief of his is a deception and a lie from the pit of hell. Therefore, since he is choosing to believe a lie and Satan is the Father of lie my brother's faith is in the devil. He can say it isn't, that he is going to heaven but he won't go to heaven because he doesn't follow Christ and is not a believer of Christ. Christ is Truth the Devil is a liar. He will spend eternity away from God...because of his chose.
He has been presented the gospel yet he refuses to believe and receive.. he is without excuse... He chooses to reject Truth.. And he claims to be a universalist or a believer of Christ.
This is my testimony and it goes hand in hand with Ashcultz and what he has been through.. In fact, I will be sending a copy of Ashultz's testimony to my brother...
And on that note I must add that I have been dealing with a brother who is currently in prison. He basically believes the same thing that the universalists/unitarians believe on this forum. The fruit of his life is proof that his belief system is in error.. He has no regard for sin, basically is in prison because of atrocities commited against innocent people, yet he constantly boasts about us all dying a being together someday. He gets hostile with me when I mention Hell or two different places when we die.
Not at all a comparison, Raelyn - God is holy, and His intention is that we are to be as well.
We believe Christ came and gave His life and rose again, to save us from our sins. Only through trusting in Christ and following CHrist is anyone saved.
Here is their statement of beliefs:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
That is New Age Philosophy...
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