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Its plain and simple ... If anyone is responsible for the fact that they are sinners and unbelievers and damned, then it is necessarily true that those who believe and are saved are responsible for the fact that they are saved.
If people deserve to be damned, then those who are saved must deserve to be saved.
They teach that God offers us the opportunity to save ourselves. It is co-savior theology ...
Ah yes, the capitalist God of Christendumb. God rewards those who save themselves by their august wisdom and power.
If you believe that God desires all people to be saved, and you believe the word of God accomplishes what God desires, than how can you say that you don't believe all people will be saved?
Because these three themes you are pulling from the scriptures are not compatible in grammar, context or hermeneutics. Those who are in Christ are saved...not everyone. Covenant!
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You cant say that you believe that the word of God accomplishes Gods desire, that is to say all people saved, if all people are not and never will be saved. You do realize that don't you?
See above.
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If it is Gods desire that are people are saved, and the word of God came into the world to accomplish Gods desire, and yet you teach and believe that most(many) people are not and never will be saved, then you are teaching and believing that Christ failed to accomplish his mission to achieve the purpose for which God sent him, which is to accomplish Gods desire that all people be saved.
Actually...it is quite the opposite. I believe He already accomplished it in the time frame He said He would.....SOON.
Folks....all of you who deny free will and choice, deny the very scriptures themselves!
Man is accountable for his actions, as is he is responsible. God has given man the freedom of choice. The Bible urges man to "choose," and to "come unto me," and "open the door"Josh. 24: 15; Matt. 11: 28; Rev. 3: 20. Adam and Eve were given the ability to choose to obey or not to obey God Gen. 2: 17; 3: 1-6. The "curses" of the scriptures were based on the Jew's freedom to choose and moral agency:"But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God...that all these curses shall come upon thee..." Deut. 28: 15-20, 45. Jesus said to those who were spiritually doomed, "ye would not!" Matt. 23:37....mind the reader the same verb and tense for God's desire of 1 Tim 2:4-6. Man is responsible for his own actions. Since man has the freedom to obey or to not obey God, does not overpower the will of man, man is responsible for his own actions. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," said Ezek. 18:20. Sin, as such, is not inherited. "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son." The prophet further states, "...the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" Ezek. 18:20, Matt. 18:3-6; 19:13-15.
As we extend into the New Testament showing the freedom of choice is that of belonging to man, the book of Acts abounds with examples of the sinner being urged to come to God. At the very outset we read, "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized..." Acts 2:40, 41.
Man is accountable, BUT NOT RESPONSIBLE for his own actions.
I think you need to think more carefully about what you are saying Sciota.
If a will were truly "free" it could not be a product of the reasons that made the choice preferable because that would mean that the choice was caused by those reasons, and that would mean that the choice would HAVE to occur.
And if a choice is not caused by reasons it would then be a choice decided by random chance.
But it would still be a choice that HAD to occur since there is nothing that can prevent a random chance choice from happening.
It "just happens" without any causual influences.
In either case (caused, or random), we are not responsible for the choices that we make.
It's like James Coram said in CHOICE AND DEITY part 16 (link above)
"Man is never responsible and cannot ever become responsible for any of his actions at any time. The recognition of this fact depends solely upon one’s ability to think sensibly and fairly. It does not depend upon a personal conviction that the Scriptures are the Word of God, much less upon any judgment that our exegesis thereof is correct. Indeed, even if both of these were to be rejected, it would still remain true that man is not responsible and that free will is a foolish myth. Unless we have a secret fondness for myths (at least when it comes to this subject), we will be grateful to see them exposed and disproved."
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-09-2010 at 06:01 PM..
Reason: spelling
Because these three themes you are pulling from the scriptures are not compatible in grammar, context or hermeneutics. Those who are in Christ are saved...not everyone. Covenant!
See above.
Actually...it is quite the opposite. I believe He already accomplished it in the time frame He said He would.....SOON.
You believe He has failed to keep His word.
So the truth is you don't believe the bible teaches that God desires all people be saved. You are just not willing to admit it.
I believe God has saved all people, you do not. You believe Christ failed to accomplish Gods desire, or you believe God does not desire all people to be saved.
And you teach that God in fact saves nobody, but only provides the the opportunity to save themselves by choosing to believe and have faith ... You teach that we must save ourselves, and that you deserve to be saved because you made the wise decision to believe.
It's plain and simple ... If anyone is responsible for the fact that they are sinners and unbelievers and damned, then it is necessarily true that those who believe and are saved are responsible for the fact that they are saved.
If people deserve to be damned, then those who are saved must deserve to be saved.
They teach that God offers us the opportunity to save ourselves. It is co-savior theology ...
And that would make salvation by the good works of properly cooperating.
But salvation is "NOT of works, lest any man should boast."
SALVATION IS NOT BY THE GOOD WORKS OF PROPERLY COOPERATING
Salvation is by grace plus nothing.
Properly cooperating is the result not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-09-2010 at 06:47 PM..
Reason: addition
Its plain and simple ... If anyone is responsible for the fact that they are sinners and unbelievers and damned, then it is necessarily true that those who believe and are saved are responsible for the fact that they are saved.
If people deserve to be damned, then those who are saved must deserve to be saved.
They teach hat God offers us the opportunity to save ourselves. It is co-savior theology ...
Plain and simple it is Ironmaw, and yet there are some of who still refuse to see it.
So the truth is you don't believe the bible teaches that God desires all people be saved. You are just not willing to admit it.
Like I said before, and will say it again, since it appears that you aren't getting dear Ironmaw, the context of 1 Tim 2:4 does not support this idea. Unfortunately, you cannot accept that. So be it.
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I believe God has saved all people, you do not. You believe Christ failed to accomplish Gods desire, or you believe God does not desire all people to be saved.
I believe, that the scripture teaches in its unadulterated context, that Christ came to save the "lost" house of Israel, who is the inwardly Jew....so that death does not reign over him.
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And you teach that God in fact saves nobody, but only provides the the opportunity to save themselves by choosing to believe and have faith ... You teach that we must save ourselves, and that you deserve to be saved because you made the wise decision to believe.
Two very different tenses of the verb unrelated in their forms....but alas, you didn't now that did you? (this is how doctrines like yours flourish.....ill-rated scholars attempting to interpret things without exegetical support...hence false doctrine.)...since it went over your head the last time...keep believing the doctrines of your UR scholars...I choose the words of Christ.
Carry on....the reason this eisegetical doctrine doesn't exist in the church is because the text had been carefully scrutinized by thousands of people coming to the same conclusion...UR does not work Biblically. It is also important to realize that terms like "all" and "every" are almost never used in an exhaustive, absolute sense, as some try to force them, but they are qualified by the scope of subjects as per the context of the passage. In Rom 5 and 1 Tim 2:4 among many others, is about "believers", "those justified", "reconciled", the reference to "all" refers to "all believers", "all those justified", and "all those reconciled".
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Man is not responsible for his own actions
Sooner or later everyone will be saved
