Dohoney: Streetcar Has $17.4 Million Shortfall, "Needs More Funding"" (Columbus: university, taxes)

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by natininja

Comment sections and talk radio seem to appeal to the same personality types. There must be some interesting psychological explanation for this, but I have no idea what it is. It can't be healthy to be angry and outraged all the time. It's like negative group therapy, making the problem worse for all involved.

Those commenters seem so worked up and passionate, yet as unusualfire notes they were all MIA last night. Rather than take an action that might actually change the situation they're so mad about, they'd apparently rather stay mad. Maybe their anger serves as a security blanket, and that subconsciously prevents them from taking any real action to relieve it.

I guess some people enjoy putting on a parade, and other people just enjoy pi$$ing on someone else's.

This is not to detract from the simple fact that a lot more streetcar supporters than opponents turned up, but really all it proves is that the support side did a better job of turning out their peeps. If I were you, though, I wouldn't make too many assumptions as to the reason why. I also wouldn't make any assumptions that anyone's opinions were changed as a result of the hearing. Personally, I consider speaking before Council on ANY TOPIC to be a complete and total waste of my time.

But of course it's always nice to see people who share your point of view blathering on in a quasi-official capacity. At least, I think so.

And please remember, I'm not a "hater" or angry about the project . I'm just someone who has a different opinion, a citizen who thinks the streetcar is a nice project that Cincinnati can't currently afford.

[unusualfire]

^ That argument would have merit if it was 50-50 split at the meeting. But the split was at least 10 to 1 in favor.

[Sarah Perry]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

^ That argument would have merit if it was 50-50 split at the meeting. But the split was at least 10 to 1 in favor.

Well, it was not an "argument," but rather just an observation. And you seem to be agreeing with me by repeating my point that a large proportion of the people who attended were pro-streetcar. So I guess we're good.

[natininja]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

This is not to detract from the simple fact that a lot more streetcar supporters than opponents turned up, but really all it proves is that the support side did a better job of turning out their peeps.

But why is that? How were the supporters able to bring in so very many more people? I don't know, but I suspect it has to do with the drive supporters have to support the project with greater commitment than those opposed have to oppose it.

If I were you, though, I wouldn't make too many assumptions as to the reason why.

Okay, I guess...but I think it's fair to speculate. Obviously there are reasons. The disparity was significant enough to say with reasonable certainty that it was not by chance.

I also wouldn't make any assumptions that anyone's opinions were changed as a result of the hearing. Personally, I consider speaking before Council on ANY TOPIC to be a complete and total waste of my time.

It's all a game of odds. An underlying point I was trying to make in my post is that being physically present and speaking to council members' faces has a greater chance at influencing policy than whining in a comment section (or talking about it on City-Data, for that matter). But expressing your opinion in any way, through any medium, has a tiny tiny chance of changing things. The council meeting is an illustration of how the willingness to put in effort has a correlation with your ability to increase the odds (even though they remain small) of your ability to influence outcomes.

It would be impossible for it not to cross the minds of council members that supporters are motivated and likely willing to vote in November based on how the council members vote on the issue, or even how they approach and discuss the issue publicly, or how long they allow the funding question to be delayed without resolution. If supporters are better organized for getting people to show up at the meeting, it's likely they'll be better organized for getting people to show up at the voting booth.

But of course it's always nice to see people who share your point of view blathering on in a quasi-official capacity. At least, I think so.

Yep. Especially when it's a landslide.

And please remember, I'm not a "hater" or angry about the project . I'm just someone who has a different opinion, a citizen who thinks the streetcar is a nice project that Cincinnati can't currently afford.

I'd think it was clear by my comment, but I wasn't talking about you. Unless you're one of the people who enjoys listening all day to WLW obsess about the streetcar, or hitting every streetcar comment section on news sites to complain or say something like:

it is going to be a PLEASURE watching this project crash and burn over the next two years. All laughs from this side of the interstate.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by Sarah Perry

This is not to detract from the simple fact that a lot more streetcar supporters than opponents turned up, but really all it proves is that the support side did a better job of turning out their peeps. If I were you, though, I wouldn't make too many assumptions as to the reason why. I also wouldn't make any assumptions that anyone's opinions were changed as a result of the hearing. Personally, I consider speaking before Council on ANY TOPIC to be a complete and total waste of my time.

But of course it's always nice to see people who share your point of view blathering on in a quasi-official capacity. At least, I think so.

And please remember, I'm not a "hater" or angry about the project . I'm just someone who has a different opinion, a citizen who thinks the streetcar is a nice project that Cincinnati can't currently afford.

At least one speaker last night, a woman from Westwood I think, said she came to the forum to voice her opposition to the project but changed her mind after hearing the presentations and all of the supporters' comments. So, that's at least one person who took time to listen to the facts and now sees the project's benefits.

Also, it's fairly obvious that a lot of the opposition comes from outside of the city - in some cases far outside the city - and a lot of the support is from the people who actually live here. Look at this board for a perfect example of that - the biggest naysayer on this board lives in Dayton; nearly all of the supporters are actual Cincinnati residents.

Finally, if you look at last night in a vacuum, you could realistically say that it was simply a case of supporters rallying their side on this one night better than the opponents. But when you put that together with the two referendums, a sweeping victory for pro-streetcar councilmembers and mayor, and rampant development along the streetcar route in both downtown and OTR, it's safe to say that last night's overwhelming showing of support was just the latest strong indication that a majority of Cincinnatians want this project.

[hensleya1]

Hamilton County Commissioners: Pull $4 Million in Streetcar Funding, Citing Cost Overruns

“In light of the city’s projected significant cost overruns on the Cincinnati Streetcar project, we believe the $4 million in OKI funds currently reserved for the streetcar project could be better utilized on infrastructure projects that would benefit not only the residents of Cincinnati and Hamilton County, but the hundreds of thousands in the region who work or engage in commerce.”

This is the latest setback for the streetcar project, which currently faces a $17.4 million budget deficit. The commissioners’ letter comes as City Council mulls whether to move forward with the project, which now is estimated to cost $133 million.

My thoughts: I'm glad that more and more are getting on board with yanking the streetcar before it causes any more damage. I've said it over and over again here and elsewhere - yank the program immediately, park the unused streetcars in the empty subway tunnel, and don't contemplate a plan like this until it makes economic sense to do so.

Although, I suppose if Cincinnati City Council wanted the streetcar that badly, then they'll find a way to make it go forward, regardless of what outside party pulls funding. In that case, then I wouldn't mind if they go ahead - and if they succeed then I'll sing the praises. If they fail, then I'm sure someone will beat me to it and say 'I told you so.'

Give me a call back, though, when Cincinnati decides to do something to help the entire region.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

...Give me a call back, though, when Cincinnati decides to do something to help the entire region.

^ If, by chance, there's no "call back," realize that the city's made at least one such move...

[Ohiogirl81]

The county can waste $4 million before lunch. Oh, and I'm sure the county has never begged OKI or the city for additional funding because a construction project has gone over budget ...

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hamilton County Commissioners: Pull $4 Million in Streetcar Funding, Citing Cost Overruns
My thoughts: I'm glad that more and more are getting on board with yanking the streetcar before it causes any more damage. I've said it over and over again here and elsewhere - yank the program immediately, park the unused streetcars in the empty subway tunnel, and don't contemplate a plan like this until it makes economic sense to do so.

Although, I suppose if Cincinnati City Council wanted the streetcar that badly, then they'll find a way to make it go forward, regardless of what outside party pulls funding. In that case, then I wouldn't mind if they go ahead - and if they succeed then I'll sing the praises. If they fail, then I'm sure someone will beat me to it and say 'I told you so.'

Give me a call back, though, when Cincinnati decides to do something to help the entire region.

Chris Finney's lurking shill returns.

[progmac]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hamilton County Commissioners: Pull $4 Million in Streetcar Funding, Citing Cost Overruns
My thoughts: I'm glad that more and more are getting on board with yanking the streetcar before it causes any more damage. I've said it over and over again here and elsewhere - yank the program immediately, park the unused streetcars in the empty subway tunnel, and don't contemplate a plan like this until it makes economic sense to do so.

Although, I suppose if Cincinnati City Council wanted the streetcar that badly, then they'll find a way to make it go forward, regardless of what outside party pulls funding. In that case, then I wouldn't mind if they go ahead - and if they succeed then I'll sing the praises. If they fail, then I'm sure someone will beat me to it and say 'I told you so.'

Give me a call back, though, when Cincinnati decides to do something to help the entire region.

It's funny to think of the streetcar project --built in existing rights-of-way and improving property along existing roads and infrastructure -- is "causing damage" if you take a minute and think about how public transportation dollars are spent. We (Ohio taxpayers) spent $75 million on the Austin Road Interchange sprawltastrophe that will do nothing but give us even MORE public infrastructure to maintain on top of repairing the deteriorated infrastructure that is left behind in first-ring suburbs because of how projects like the Austin Road Interchange simply MOVE demand without creating anything resembling legitimate development.

Here is my analogy for mainstream development in the US (projects like Austin Road Interchange):
Imagine if, in your 20 year old house, your roof started leaking, a couple of windows broke out, birds were getting in the attic, and the paint was flaking off. Rather than fixing everything, you build an addition to the house and move into the addition. Everything is great in the new addition, no leaks, nothing. Then, 20 years later, the same things happen to the new addition. It would be too expensive to fix all the problems of both this and the addition, so you do the only logical thing -- you build yet another addition.

In the streetcar debate, those advocating for the streetcar see this investment as a way to fix the original house. Some opponents say, stop that, we need to save that money to build another addition!