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From what I gather it sounds like the streetcar will not generate sufficient revenue to sustain itself and therefore will be paid for out of an already stressed general fund. Then, I must ask, why are most of you in favor of it? Simply because they already spent some money to lay a few bars of rail? Is throwing good money after bad really the best approach for the long-run? To reiterate, getting any project constructed is only part of the story. Operating and maintenance costs must be considered in any budget decision.
And where were you at the meeting for the $1.7 billion expenditure on a 2 mile stretch of highway in Downtown Columbus? Why weren't you asking how this is going to pay for itself to the tune of $8.5 billion per mile? Why didn't you ask why this money is being spent when ODOT's own data shows traffic volumes on this stretch of highway have already historic lows without even a single dollar spent on changing it then? Oh wait, because it's a streetcar. Let's just call it a tram then and in either case it's a drop in the bucket compared to wasteful, unnecessary highway projects. Oh, and did I mention ODOT doesn't have funding locked in for the complete project hence why the timeline is being way spread out into numerous phases? Federal funds for highway projects have bottomed out a couple of times already and yet that's what ODOT is relying on with no backup, not to mention higher operating and maintenance costs for more lanes. Columbus can get it's $1.7 billion but god forbid Cincinnati get just a few hundred million to get a rail system up and running.
more people will travel through the 70 /71 split in columbus or the 71/75 bridge in cincy in good day than will ride the trolly in a year.at some point you have to spend dollars where the demand is already..not try and get people to get rid of their "bad" cars..i get it cars are bad..we should be like maoist china where everyone rides the same model bicycle..even senior citizens should have to ride bikes and run red lights and weave through traffic.
^And you know this how since there is no trolley in Ohio? And how many Lbs of emissions does 150,000 cars and trucks a day produce over 365 days a year compared to a streetcar? You do know those highways will need to be resurfaced in about 10 years and rebuilt for 3 times a much in 30-40 years.
Last edited by unusualfire; 12-27-2013 at 10:35 PM..
internal combustion petroleum engines i believe have a lower carbon footprint than coal generated electricity.if everyone drove an electric car..the same amount of energy would have to be produced equal to oil consumption.now im not saying trains in general wouldnt be more efficient,for example a diesel powered train is one of the most efficient means of transporting goods and people from point to point..but then those goods and people have to be distributed generally by trucks and cars to their destinations so i dont see how the trolly is going to save on emissions,especially since most who ride the trolly will be day trippers etc,,whio will have to drive and park and then take the trolly.now if there was a comprehensive subway system like new york or paris..yes..the it would be more efficient,people could literally if they chose abandon their cars..at least for travel in the urban area..but there will never be enough people in greater cincy to justify that.
And where were you at the meeting for the $1.7 billion expenditure on a 2 mile stretch of highway in Downtown Columbus? Why weren't you asking how this is going to pay for itself to the tune of $8.5 billion per mile? Why didn't you ask why this money is being spent when ODOT's own data shows traffic volumes on this stretch of highway have already historic lows without even a single dollar spent on changing it then? Oh wait, because it's a streetcar. Let's just call it a tram then and in either case it's a drop in the bucket compared to wasteful, unnecessary highway projects. Oh, and did I mention ODOT doesn't have funding locked in for the complete project hence why the timeline is being way spread out into numerous phases? Federal funds for highway projects have bottomed out a couple of times already and yet that's what ODOT is relying on with no backup, not to mention higher operating and maintenance costs for more lanes. Columbus can get it's $1.7 billion but god forbid Cincinnati get just a few hundred million to get a rail system up and running.
Whoa whoa, let's simmer down a notch. It is exactly these types of emotional outbursts that push neutral parties such as myself into the against-camp when it begins to appear the reasons for supporting the streetcar are based more in ideology than in economic or business sense. Please go back and read my posts for a clearer picture of my position on the issue, but to briefly bring you up to speed I'm here on a fact finding mission simply to learn more about this project. I'm not firmly in one camp or the other. I'm impressed by Cincinnati's renaissance since I left my hometown for job opportunities elsewhere and I would lean toward being pro-streetcar assuming it isn't a budget buster on the general fund of the City given all the other financial pressures Cincinnati is facing.
Now to answer your questions re: Columbus, I'm assuming you're speaking to the overhaul of I-71/I-670, referred to as "Columbus Crossroads," which had become a significant bottleneck and was decades beyond the original planned daily volume. Keep in mind you're comparing an interstate highway (two interstates intersecting to be exact) to a neighborhood fixed rail system. Because we're talking about an interstate I'm sure there were federal funds involved. In addition, it was an ODOT project and not a city-level project executed by Columbus. And it's unclear where you're getting a price tag of nearly $2 billion. The reference material from ODOT shows the final tally at around $200 million. And finally, it was a public safety issue with a disproportionate number of vehicular accidents as outlined in the following link.
Now that we've put that issue to rest, if you wish to examine infrastructure costs let's look at a more apples-to-apples comparison. Your typical two-lane composite road (or three lane road if you include the center turn lane) with seven inches of base concrete and three inches of top layer asphalt found on most city streets (a good example would be E Galbraith Rd between Montgomery Rd and Kenwood Rd) costs about $1 million per mile in today's dollars to completely grind down to the substrate level and replace. Such a street in Ohio's climate has an expected useful life of around 20 years before needing to be completely replaced in the manner just described. There are interim maintenance actions that are typically performed. At first sign of deterioration a crack seal is applied. These are the tar stripes you often see crisscrossing the roads which make an audible sound when you drive over them with your tires on a hot day. As streets further approach the end of their useful life and the cracks become more numerous (envision spider web cracking) that individual crack seal is impractical a slurry seal is applied to fill in the crack and displace water.
If you wanted to translate the $1 million capital outlay for a mile of road into an annual appropriation essentially converting fixed capital into an operating cost you would simply divide $1 million by 20 years resulting in an annual expense of $50,000 per mile of road. This of course does not include the cost of crack seal or slurry seal but I think it's easy to see that the annual operating cost between a 3.6 mile stretch of city street and the first 3.6 mile loop of the streetcar (estimated at between $2.0-2.7 million per year or $550,000-750,000 per mile) is not even close.
Last edited by Zen_master; 12-28-2013 at 08:18 PM..
Whoa whoa, let's simmer down a notch. It is exactly these types of emotional outbursts that push neutral parties such as myself into the against-camp when it begins to appear the reasons for supporting the streetcar are based more in ideology than in economic or business sense. Please go back and read my posts for a clearer picture of my position on the issue, but to briefly bring you up to speed I'm here on a fact finding mission simply to learn more about this project. I'm not firmly in one camp or the other. I'm impressed by Cincinnati's renaissance since I left my hometown for job opportunities elsewhere and I would lean toward being pro-streetcar assuming it isn't a budget buster on the general fund of the City given all the other financial pressures Cincinnati is facing.
Now to answer your questions re: Columbus, I'm assuming you're speaking to the overhaul of I-71/I-670, referred to as "Columbus Crossroads," which had become a significant bottleneck and was decades beyond the original planned daily volume. Keep in mind you're comparing an interstate highway (two interstates intersecting to be exact) to a neighborhood fixed rail system. Because we're talking about an interstate I'm sure there were federal funds involved. In addition, it was an ODOT project and not a city-level project executed by Columbus. And it's unclear where you're getting a price tag of nearly $2 billion. The reference material from ODOT shows the final tally at around $200 million. And finally, it was a public safety issue with a disproportionate number of vehicular accidents as outlined in the following link.
Now that we've put that issue to rest, if you wish to examine infrastructure costs let's look at a more apples-to-apples comparison. Your typical two-lane composite road (or three lane road if you include the center turn lane) with seven inches of base concrete and three inches of top layer asphalt found on most city streets (a good example would be E Galbraith Rd between Montgomery Rd and Kenwood Rd) costs about $1 million per mile in today's dollars to completely grind down to the substrate level and replace. Such a street in Ohio's climate has an expected useful life of around 20 years before needing to be completely replaced in the manner just described. There are interim maintenance actions that are typically performed. At first sign of deterioration a crack seal is applied. These are the tar stripes you often see crisscrossing the roads which make an audible sound when you drive over them with your tires on a hot day. As streets further approach the end of their useful life and the cracks become more numerous (envision spider web cracking) that individual crack seal is impractical a slurry seal is applied to fill in the crack and displace water.
If you wanted to translate the $1 million capital outlay for a mile of road into an annual appropriation essentially converting fixed capital into an operating cost you would simply divide $1 million by 20 years resulting in an annual expense of $50,000 per mile of road. This of course does not include the cost of crack seal or slurry seal but I think it's easy to see that the annual operating cost between a 3.6 mile stretch of city street and the first 3.6 mile loop of the streetcar (estimated at between $2.0-2.7 million per year or $550,000-750,000 per mile) is not even close.
Zen, just a few things... First, as far as the streetcar vs. a highway go, people will see the benefit of the highway more for a very simple reason. Most people probably won't ride the streetcar more than a few times. It will be for people who live there and for tourists who want to try it out. The streetcar will have a ROI, but just one that fewer people will see. It will be in the development that pops up along the route, increased tax revenues, in the reduction of traffic along the routes, in the marketing of the city, etc. But more people will see the value in the highway just because they are more likely to personally use it. That will change over time as alternative systems expand and become more practical for more people.
Second, as much as Keith and I disagree, he is right on the cost of the 70/670/71 project. The $200 million you're referring to was just for the section that runs from the 670/71 split down to I-70 on the east side of Downtown. Future phases will include the rebuilding of the 70/71 split, rebuilding the highway canyon on the south side of Downtown (I-70) and then rebuilding the 315/70 split on the west side of Downtown. All told, the final project cost will be between $1.5 and $2 billion with a finish date sometime around the early 2020s. From a traffic perspective, traffic levels were not all that high and alone did not justify the rebuild. It was the layout that was the issue. I've travelled that stretch many times, and the many lane changes, multiple on/off ramps and confusing signage was a recipe for multiple accidents. However, ODOT in its infinite wisdom decided not just to rebuild to fix the layout, but to increase traffic capacity as well, something that wasn't really needed. Nationally and in Ohio, car-based traffic is on the decline and has been for about a decade. Columbus saw a 5.7% drop in auto traffic between 2006-2011 alone, and nationally it's a similar picture.
Third, the cost comparison per mile is a little disingenuous. First, you include ALL maintenance costs for rail, but only talk about the capital cost of construction for roads. It's not just sealing cracks. It's filling potholes, plowing and salting in winter, repainting lines, repairing and installing signage, landscaping medians, installing and maintaining streetlights, repairing any related damages from traffic accidents, etc. All this is part of the direct or indirect cost associated with any road. The associated costs per year are a lot closer than what you suggest. Further, you neglect to include the economic impact associated between the two forms, which surely plays a role in whether or not they make good investments. In the end, rail almost always has a greater ROI for every dollar spent.
Regarding your last paragraph, I disclosed I only expressly show the capital outlay with the caveat there are slurry seals and crack seals along the way (which are measured in tens of thousands, closer to ten, per mile per year). That was exactly my point, you need an awful lot of maintenance to make up the gulf between $50,000 per mile per year of street versus the $550-750,000 per mile per year of Cincy streetcar.
I've stayed out of this conversation for a few days in order to watch the cards fall where they may. And I'll keep it simple. I'd like to see John Cranley's credible plan to deal with the following, in no particular order:
(1) The repairs needed to the Museum Center building, now estimated at $150 million. Coincidentally enough that's the cost of the streetcar.
(2) Where is the money coming to finish the MLK interchange?
(3) What will John Cranley do, in cooperation with Ohio and Kentucky and the federal government, to get the Brent Spence replaced?
(4) What does city council have in plan to deal with the $800 million pension fund hole that's looming?
(5) I agree the city needs more police and firefighters, but where's the money coming for that?
It's appalling to hear that the streetcar is going forward without having its' ongoing operating costs in place. $9 million over ten years isn't nearly enough, even the KPMG audit revealed that. You need a minimum of $100 million over the next thirty years once you account for inflation. The streetcar by itself will never recoup operating costs unless you charged $15 a fare.
Cranley's second position - that is, have the streetcar supporters put up or shut up by ponying up the operating costs - would have been an acceptable compromise. At this point, the best solution is to levy a special taxing district within six blocks of the streetcar in any direction to recover the operating costs that will otherwise be an indefinite liability on the general fund.
Of course, doubt you'll see that. I was hoping the election of John Cranley would signal a change in the city's direction, a turn away from the destructive policies of Mark Mallory and Roxanne Qualls. It doesn't seem to be the case.
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