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I was saying people don't use it like a subway for the most part unless it runs that way. NYC does have a few line's which do run that way, however, most of those station's aren't building highrise's around the stops like a subway would so how many people will be able to walk to the train station like what is happening around subway stations?
I was saying people don't use it like a subway for the most part unless it runs that way. NYC does have a few line's which do run that way, however, most of those station's aren't building highrise's around the stops like a subway would so how many people will be able to walk to the train station like what is happening around subway stations?
But why would the suburbs need to urbanize when the city is already 13 times the size of DC and more than twice the density? You already have a near majority of the MSA (and probably a majority of the UA) living in the city whereas only 11 percent or so of the DC MSA lives in the District of Columbia. I can see why DC feels compelled to urbanize suburbs, but why would people in New York want to do that?
Most people don't want to build Tribeca in Massapequa. NYC already contains 42% of the total MSA population. It's not like DC where truly walkable, urban areas are lacking compared to the metro as a whole.
Besides, DC Metro shuts down, which means that 0% of the population has rail access for a significant part of the day.
NYC is an outlier. This is a discussion about the best form of mass rail rapid transit that regions should be building. If other region's were built like NYC including D.C., then it would be good to follow in NYC's footsteps. How many are though? Zero. So D.C.'s model works better for 99.99999999% of the country. That is all I was saying.
But why would the suburbs need to urbanize when the city is already 13 times the size of DC and more than twice the density? You already have a near majority of the MSA (and probably a majority of the UA) living in the city whereas only 11 percent or so of the DC MSA lives in the District of Columbia. I can see why DC feels compelled to urbanize suburbs, but why would people in New York want to do that?
I think we are talking about different things. I am talking about which is the better rail system to use for a region. What region is built like NYC in America? I'm saying the best form of transit for the rest of the nation is the D.C. metro system hybrid. It allows a region to grow through smart growth as long as the region pushed it in their policy debate. NYC's form only works for NYC. The other 99.9999999% of the country is better off following D.C.'s model. That level of sprawled inner city density over 300 mile's doesn't exist anywhere else.
NYC is an outlier. This is a discussion about the best form of mass rail rapid transit that regions should be building. If other region's were built like NYC including D.C., then it would be good to follow in NYC's footsteps. How many are though? Zero. So D.C.'s model works better for 99.99999999% of the country. That is all I was saying.
So then why did you spend two pages comparing NYC and DC?
You have a real talent for shifting conversations in different directions when the debate's no longer in your favor. It's like debating who's better between Manning and Brady and then saying "This discussion is not really about Manning and Brady. It's about the best QB to ever play for the Washington Redskins."
I've never felt headways were as big a deal on commuter rail. Most people have a daily routine and simply show up at the station at a certain time.
Easy to say when not living in a place reliant on commuter rail for center city access. If you're 35 or 40 miles east on Long Island, then one doesn't go to Manhattan on the spur of the moment, it's usually a planned all day (or at least half a day), so the frequency doesn't matter much. If you're in eastern Queens or western Nassau, a trip to Manhattan shouldn't something that requires careful timing, you lose a lot of freedom by having to wait and be at the mercy of the commuter rail's schedule.
Hollis, Queens has a LIRR train every hour off peak. Sure, many of the residents take the bus and then make a free transfer to the subway, but buses are slow, and it's a bit of a waste of a good rail system to run the trains so infrequently considering how close it is to Manhattan. Closer in, low frequency is more of a problem. East of the last city stations connecting to the end of the subway (Jamaica on the main line, Flushing on the Port Washington line), stop spacing decreases to roughly that of an express subway. While density drops off quickly, it's still dense enough (certainly denser than most of the suburban parts of the DC Metro) to support higher frequencies. Besides providing quicker service to Manhattan, with the low-ish subway stop spacing, local rail service could be useful as an alternative to local buses with fare integration and high enough frequencies. It's stupid to have packed buses on Northern Blvd mid-afternoon while there are empty seats on the much faster parellel Port Washington LIRR in eastern Queens. Similarly, Philadelphia has a bunch of outer neighborhoods with rail access that get more ridership for the slower bus maybe due to low frequencies. Closer than 20-25 miles, the LIRR should be run more like the DC Metro. How about for the closer in LIRR lines (west of Great Neck on the Port Washington, Mineola or New Hyde Park on the Main Line, Valley Stream on the Babylon Branch?) a system that runs more like a subway-commuter rail hybrid:
1) Fare integration with the MTA Subway & Bus. Perhaps a two zone system?
2) Use much shorter trains (4 cars) off peak with high frequencies (4-5 trains/hour each direction)
2) Make all local stops. For the main line: Merillon Avenue, New Hyde Park, Floral Park, Bellerose, Queens Village, Hollis, Jamaica, Kew Gardens, Forest Hills and Woodside.
3) Trains coming from further east would skip most of these stops except for Jamaica. A timed transfer similar to the Metro North system to switch between the longer distance express trains and local trains would provide access to all stations on the line.
While expensive, it would expand the usefulness of transit in underserved areas without requring new construction. London and Paris use a similar system with much better commuter rail, why can't NYC do the same?
Huh? Sunday-Thursday from 12:00 a.m. - 5:00 a.m. is a significant part of the day? Maybe if you're a rapist.
People work during those times. Not everyone has a 9-5 office job in a DT core. So basically, DC has inferior rail service because it shuts downs, leaving hundreds of thousands of people to rely on cars to get to their jobs.
I was saying people don't use it like a subway for the most part unless it runs that way. NYC does have a few line's which do run that way, however, most of those station's aren't building highrise's around the stops like a subway would so how many people will be able to walk to the train station like what is happening around subway stations?
It's not used like a subway, but plenty of people use the LIRR and Metro North to access the city for non-work trips. Most of the outer DC stations like the NYC commuter rail are park and rides. However, many commuter rail stations have a dense cluster of residential and commercial development. Scarsdale is a somewhat extreme example:
A number of LIRR stations are in Queens. Bayside is about 18-20k/sq miles with small apartment buildings and detached homes on small lots, at least as dense as the surroundings of DC Metro stations outside Arlington/Alexandria and DC. You don't need high rises for medium density.
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