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Dallas and Fort Worth are four miles farther apart, downtown to downtown, and neither city is representative of a principal 7.1 million plus city. Further, both are representative of there own spheres of influence. Fort Worth, if it was a metro area defined by its already existing Metro Division, is the center of ~2.331 "metro" area. Dallas would still be twice the size at ~4.772 million...
Obviously, the size differential between Greensboro and Winston is smaller, but they function in much the same way, if not all.
That's not the best example to use at all because the Metroplex is literally scattered with suburbs on steroids that play outsized roles within the region. Plano, Arlington, Irving, etc. all have major corporate headquarters or other major facilities that enhance the connectivity of the region; as a matter of fact, the Las Colinas area of Irving has more office space than downtown Dallas. Furthermore, Dallas and Fort Worth are connected by commuter rail. These are the major reasons why DFW is a singular MSA as opposed to a CSA. Even adjusting for size, this is a very bad comparison to use with respect to the Triad as it severely lacks the regional dynamism of the Metroplex. The Triad doesn't even have its own version of Cary.
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Winston has always been the secondary city, and remains so today, for a multi-nodal region that is very interconnected. If anything, they are becoming more connected as the region grows. Logistically, they are connected through infrastructure like DFW. Economies of the principal cities are different in arena but entertwined in impact. Events (athletic, convention or otherwise) in the Triad appeal to residents from either city, and to residents of all surrounding suburbs. Having separate identities doesn't mean they should be separate metro areas...
For all practical intents and purposes, the Triad is one metropolitan area. Greensboro, while not a principal city in the traditional sense, is the "main" city (for lack of a better word) of that region, today and historically...
You are mistaken; Winston has not always been the secondary city. Winston was once the largest city in NC and Greensboro surpassed it in municipal population in 1960. Even now, while Greensboro has the larger city population, Winston has the larger urbanized area population and it has always had the larger skyline, downtown area, and a more robust economy/business presence. Historically, Winston has acted as the larger city of the region and was the state's primary business city before the rise of Charlotte.
At any rate, there's enough physical and psychological distance between the two cities so I can see why they are separate MSAs. At the very least, there's not enough cross-commuting between the two for them to be a singular MSA under the current definition so there's that. Of course there's a level of interconnectivity present but it's misleading to say they are "very interconnected."
But again, with a region that's split like the Triad where there is no one de facto primary city, it's unreasonable to expect the more populous city to have everything that a city that is the de facto primary city of its region would. That's also why Greenville doesn't stack up to Birmingham, Richmond, Jacksonville, etc. overall.
I agree with everything you stated but I wouldn't say Greensboro is much more diverse; it just has a larger Black population (41%) than Greenville (32%) but both have small Hispanic and Asian populations (less than 10%). Also what helps Greenville is that the Upstate has the most international investment per capita in the entire country, so you often have business leaders from other counties visiting the city on a semi-regular basis.
Maybe it's A&T's huge presence, only my experiences though with both places. Coupled with UNCG's huge outreach to diversify and broaden campus demographics could be a catalyst as well, though I'm much more familiar with Gboro. Gville definitely has a progressive business mindset. Gboro has yet to reinvent or figure out how to charter a new course after textile mills, Burlington Industries and others faded away.
Maybe it's A&T's huge presence, only my experiences though with both places. Coupled with UNCG's huge outreach to diversify and broaden campus demographics could be a catalyst as well, though I'm much more familiar with Gboro. Gville definitely has a progressive business mindset. Gboro has yet to reinvent or figure out how to charter a new course after textile mills, Burlington Industries and others faded away.
Yeah A&T definitely helps; Greensboro certainly has a bigger Black presence, both in terms of the population and institutionally.
- Born in GSO - graduated from Page and A&T.
- Have lived in CLT and ATL.
- Been to cities all over the country and the world.
- Spent this past weekend in GSO.
In my opinion, and that of a lot of 'locals', Greensboro can be seen as anti-everything associated with thriving cities and growth. I love my hometown, but I would never call it progressive. I'm not sure we've had a pro-business mayor in recent history.
I think I took in the entire city this past weekend. Judging from what I've seen of other cities (and considering city/metro size as a variable), Greensboro appears to have had about 3 years worth of visually noticeable 'growth/change/development/progression' in the 16 years I've been gone. It's a NIMBY paradise.
A&T's campus is AMAZING though.
Nimbys is one issue, I think the main issue in regards to growth and development in Greensboro is that it is between(like a hour to the triangle, a hour and 30(driving the speed limit) to Charlotte) the two largest cities in the State, both of which attributed to much of the states growth period.
I think in between Winston's innovation quarter, The Union Square campus being built in DT Gboro, Joint School of Nano Tech & Engineering at the Gateway research park, HQ Greensboro(start up hub and partner of HQ Raleigh), And other developments going in and around both cities are all steps in the right direction that will both spark growth, and do the main thing that separates the triangle and the triad, attract more jobs to the region.
- Born in GSO - graduated from Page and A&T.
- Have lived in CLT and ATL.
- Been to cities all over the country and the world.
- Spent this past weekend in GSO.
In my opinion, and that of a lot of 'locals', Greensboro can be seen as anti-everything associated with thriving cities and growth. I love my hometown, but I would never call it progressive. I'm not sure we've had a pro-business mayor in recent history.
I think I took in the entire city this past weekend. Judging from what I've seen of other cities (and considering city/metro size as a variable), Greensboro appears to have had about 3 years worth of visually noticeable 'growth/change/development/progression' in the 16 years I've been gone. It's a NIMBY paradise.
A&T's campus is AMAZING though.
Good points. Greensboro has seemingly refused to embrace and leverage it's historical building stock (underutilized) and more than adequate collegiate scene (arts, music, etc). Although Gboro doesn't have Falls Park or a waterfront like Wilmington, all the ingredients are there to support a diversity of bars, restaurants, boutiques, etc on a much larger scale than currently available. It's clueless as to why there aren't numerous live band venues, etc that cater to the masses given the local and collegiate talent. There are "things" but seems more suited for a city of 30k than 300k....sort of Salisburyish with taller buildings.
I see the vision/potential and know certain elements are in the works but it's moving at snails pace. Nimbyism?
I've lived in Greensboro for years and have visited Greenville a half dozen times or more. I'd much rather live in Greensboro, but I don't think Greensboro's downtown can match well with that of Greenville's. I was quite impressed with the shopping and entertainment in downtown Gville each time I've visited.
I've lived in Greensboro for years and have visited Greenville a half dozen times or more. I'd much rather live in Greensboro, but I don't think Greensboro's downtown can match well with that of Greenville's. I was quite impressed with the shopping and entertainment in downtown Gville each time I've visited.
Why would you rather live in Greensboro? Just curious.
Why isn't the DFW comparison apt? High Point, Kernersville, Thomasville, Lexington, and Burlington are certainly suburbs that contribute to the region's connectivity. Piedmont Triad Research Park in Winstom is clearly representative of the region; there are many examples like it. I'm not in disagreement that the Triad is less dynamic than DFW, but surely, on a smaller scale, it functions the same in more than a few ways...
The Triad's much smaller size, overall "blandness" (although I don't think that's the right word, just in comparison to RDU and DFW) and slower growth rates make it easy to overlook blatant similarities...
Clearly, I was wrong about Winston! Thanks for the correction. And I understand the Census definition of MSA, I just disagree with it. Do you also agree with the Census' take on Raleigh and Durham being seperate? It doesn't make sense. Winston-Salem/Greensboro are the same metro, there are probably ~10 similar misdefined metro regions around the country...
Greenville is very pretty but I find Greensboro (and NC) more interesting. It's my second favorite city in NC (after Raleigh) which may sound crazy to some folks but something about the layout and look of the downtown really resonates with me. I'm not familiar enough with the city to know the names of the buildings but my favorite building in all of NC is in Greensboro. I'd practically kill to have it in Richmond.
I've been to cool independent businesses there. It seems to be a big maker town (the reality may be something else). I saw a Talbots or something in Greenville. It was a bit too commercial (which isn't easy to pull off in a small market so kudos to the city fior pulling that off) for me, I enjoyed my visits but I wasn't inspired by the city.
Why isn't the DFW comparison apt? High Point, Kernersville, Thomasville, Lexington, and Burlington are certainly suburbs that contribute to the region's connectivity. Piedmont Triad Research Park in Winstom is clearly representative of the region; there are many examples like it. I'm not in disagreement that the Triad is less dynamic than DFW, but surely, on a smaller scale, it functions the same in more than a few ways...
The Triad's much smaller size, overall "blandness" (although I don't think that's the right word, just in comparison to RDU and DFW) and slower growth rates make it easy to overlook blatant similarities...
Those suburbs are nothing more than bedroom communities and offer little to nothing on their own. Again, those suburbs of DFW I mentioned are business centers in their own right which facilitate a much greater level of commuting across the region. Plano is home to a SLEW of major F500 company operations/HQs and even has its own convention center, Irving has more office space than DT Dallas, Arlington is home to the Dallas Cowboys stadium, etc. The Triad has no suburbs that contribute to the overall region like that, not even close; the closest would be Asheboro with the zoo, if you consider Asheboro a suburb. And there's also no commuter rail connecting GSO and WS.
Practically everything that the Triad offers is found in GSO and WS themselves (and HP, to a lesser extent) particularly economically. That's simply not true of DFW. The similarities in the Triad you're highlighting are superficial which is why the region isn't a singular MSA.
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Clearly, I was wrong about Winston! Thanks for the correction. And I understand the Census definition of MSA, I just disagree with it. Do you also agree with the Census' take on Raleigh and Durham being seperate? It doesn't make sense. Winston-Salem/Greensboro are the same metro, there are probably ~10 similar misdefined metro regions around the country...
There are really only two CSAs in the country that I think should be probably still be singular MSAs--the Triangle and the Bay Area. You could probably throw the Upstate of SC in as well but otherwise, I see the justification for GSO and WS having their own MSAs within a singular CSA.
But getting back to the original point, I simply don't see why you would expect GSO (or WS) to have all of the amenities of a 1.6 million region on its own when it doesn't carry the entire region. Would you expect DC, as a city, to stack up to Chicago simply because DC is the largest city in its 10 million CSA?
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