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I was exaggerating about the 30k but those who live in the Triad as I once did treat it as one metro. I know plenty of people who commute between the 3 cities, attend events, etc on a whim. Downtown Winston to downtown Gboro is 30 minutes. We all understand the rigid definition used to define MSAs and for the Triangle and Triad not to be considered one MSA is utterly ridiculous.
The Triangle, sure I can see. There's more justification for the Triad to be broken up but I could see it recombining at some point. I actually think Winston folks prefer it the way it is now because with its own MSA, it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. At any rate, it's somewhat off-topic and the dead horse has been beaten enough.
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I do agree that Gboro isn't the dominate city in the metro but is considered the "lead" city. It should have more activity happening downtown which is hampered by short-sighted leadership and hopefully that changes soon.
Greensboro isn't universally considered the "lead" city of the Triad within NC, that I know for sure. Many people who are actually familiar with both it and Winston put Winston ahead for a couple of reasons, even if Greensboro has the larger municipal population. But even with more activity downtown, Greensboro simply won't compare with a singular city that anchors a region of 1.6 million+ people, just as Raleigh--which does well for itself, no doubt--doesn't stack up as a city to Charlotte despite the fact that the Triangle and metro Charlotte are both in the 2-2.5 million range. That's just the nature of the beast.
This is all I was saying, and you encapsulated it perfectly. I never lived in the Triad. However, I lived in Fayetteville and Charlotte. My sister went to WSSU. I know scores of people from all over the Triad, and while I don't claim to speak for 'everyone', I do know that the vast majority of people I know from the Triad consider it one metro; bump the flawed Census definition...
Well the Triad actually still *is* one metro; CSAs and MSAs are both types of metropolitan areas, only differentiated by commuting thresholds. I seriously doubt the average Joe in the Triad is even aware of all of this stuff like us C-D nerds. People still treat it as a singular region, which it still is, but I'm pretty sure nobody's complaining about a 25% commuting threshold vs a 15% commuting threshold.
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You also understood my secondary point. Sure, the Greensboro isn't a traditional lead city, and in scale it's only marginally ahead of Winston, but 'most' people consider Greensboro the "main" city of the two, for lack of a better word. I appreciate your post...
Even so, expecting Greensboro, by itself, to offer everything on its own that a singular city that anchors a metro of 1.6 million is unreasonable. Think back to the Richmond vs Norfolk discussion. As a city, Richmond is ahead of Norfolk despite Norfolk being the traditional center of commerce and culture of a larger metro area. Why? Because Norfolk shares its metro (MSA) with other principal cities while Richmond is the undisputed dominant city of its metro. And if you make the comparison between Richmond and VA Beach, the "lead" city of HR, the gap only gets bigger. That's basically how it works with the Triad.
But yes, Greensboro has a small downtown for its size and it could have more. Having the Sheraton/KCC and the coliseum in or just outside downtown would have helped, although it's probably best that the coliseum isn't downtown.
The Triangle, sure I can see. There's more justification for the Triad to be broken up but I could see it recombining at some point. I actually think Winston folks prefer it the way it is now because with its own MSA, it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. At any rate, it's somewhat off-topic and the dead horse has been beaten enough.
Greensboro isn't universally considered the "lead" city of the Triad within NC, that I know for sure. Many people who are actually familiar with both it and Winston put Winston ahead for a couple of reasons, even if Greensboro has the larger municipal population. But even with more activity downtown, Greensboro simply won't compare with a singular city that anchors a region of 1.6 million+ people, just as Raleigh--which does well for itself, no doubt--doesn't stack up as a city to Charlotte despite the fact that the Triangle and metro Charlotte are both in the 2-2.5 million range. That's just the nature of the beast.
Off topic but I get it, outsiders and technocrats will consider Gboro and Winston-Salem to be separate MSAs using today's MSAs criteria. It's rather silly because they share a common airport (amongst many other things) that is accessible from each downtown within 20-25 minutes.
It is the "lead" city in the Triad. I went to school in Gboro and practically there every week for business, friends, etc. Gboro historically has more national cache because of the ACC & Coliseum, Woolworth/Civil Rights Movement and from a regional perspective for African Americans, NC A&T. Greensboro also hosts the PGA Wyndham Championship and other things. It's called the "Gate" city because of the many highways that provide access to the city. Every combo city metro's moniker is prioritized by he lead city, DFW, RDU, MSP, etc.
Greensboro has simply failed to grow similarly to many other metro "lead" cities and fulfill its potential like downtown Greenville, Raleigh, etc. Greenville isn't growing at the pace of Raleigh, Charlotte, etc., but had the wherewithal to reinvent the downtown and market the city accordingly. Greensboro hasn't down those things to underscore uniqueness: signage, marketing, new water features, etc. As I stated earlier, no city has down less with more in the Carolinas than Greensboro. It's a shame, because if Raleigh or Charlotte had Elm St., both would showcase and market it to death.
Last edited by Big Aristotle; 07-27-2016 at 05:32 AM..
Off topic but I get it, outsiders and technocrats will consider Gboro and Winston-Salem to be separate MSAs using today's MSAs criteria. It's rather silly because they share a common airport (amongst many other things) that is accessible from each downtown within 20-25 minutes.
There are lots of regions that share airports and other amenities that aren't a singular MSA and never were. But when most people (who aren't urban geeks) talk about the Triad being one metro, they simply mean that it is a region with a shared identity with some level of interconnectivity--and it never stopped being that due to the Census/OMB redefining the criteria for MSAs/CSAs.
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It is the "lead" city in the Triad. I went to school in Gboro and practically there every week for business, friends, etc. Gboro historically has more national cache because of the ACC & Coliseum, Woolworth/Civil Rights Movement and from a regional perspective for African Americans, NC A&T. Greensboro also hosts the PGA Wyndham Championship and other things. It's called the "Gate" city because of the many highways that provide access to the city. Every combo city metro's moniker is prioritized by he lead city, DFW, RDU, MSP, etc.
I think it is highly debatable that Greensboro historically has more national cachet than Winston-Salem. Winston-Salem has historically been the business center of NC (before Charlotte's rise) and the Triad and is/has been associated with more known brands: BB&T, Wachovia, Hanes, Krispy Kreme, etc. It is home to one of the most prestigious universities in the state (the nation even) and is more known for tobacco; heck, there are two major cigarette brands that bear the name of the city. Winston-Salem is certainly more known in the arts world, being home to NCSA and the National Black Theatre Festival. I think over the past couple of decades, Greensboro has had a higher profile due to the convention industry and hosting events that normally go to larger cities though.
Oh, and every multinodal metro isn't prioritized by the lead city with respect to nomenclature, with Hampton Roads (Virginia Beach-Norfolk) and the Bay Area (San Jose-San Francisco) being notable examples. In the case of Greensboro and Winston-Salem, the difference really is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Anyone who's visited both cities can tell that Winston was the more historically significant city; it has a larger downtown with a good bit more historic structures, not even counting Old Salem and Historic Bethabara. It's certainly more of an "old money" town than Greensboro, and it shows.
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Greensboro has simply failed to grow similarly to many other metro "lead" cities and fulfill its potential like downtown Greenville, Raleigh, etc. Greenville isn't growing at the pace of Raleigh, Charlotte, etc., but had the wherewithal to reinvent the downtown and market the city accordingly. Greensboro hasn't down those things to underscore uniqueness: signage, marketing, new water features, etc. As I stated earlier, no city has down less with more in the Carolinas than Greensboro. It's a shame, because if Raleigh or Charlotte had Elm St., both would showcase and market it to death.
I agree that Greensboro could have done more over the years to build up its downtown, but I think it has made some notable moves towards that end in recent years with the ballpark, Center City Park, the new park and performing arts center under construction, the greenway, etc. But again, due to their status as midsized cities, neither Greensboro or Winston on their own will offer as much as a singular city that anchors a similarly-sized metro area.
As I stated earlier, no city has done less with more in the Carolinas than Greensboro.
Agreed. There's an "old guard" in Greensboro and they like it just the way it is/was.
They should be aging out by now, but enough of their children (with whom I went to high school), have decided to live in Greensboro and maintain the status quo.
Greenville has a really nice downtown, one of the nicest for a town its size in the nation. low cost of living. A lot of good churches (if you're Christian). Greensboro is larger and has more things to do. cost of living is good. Both have nice economies and really friendly people. I like both areas.
There are lots of regions that share airports and other amenities that aren't a singular MSA and never were. But when most people (who aren't urban geeks) talk about the Triad being one metro, they simply mean that it is a region with a shared identity with some level of interconnectivity--and it never stopped being that due to the Census/OMB redefining the criteria for MSAs/CSAs.
I think it is highly debatable that Greensboro historically has more national cachet than Winston-Salem. Winston-Salem has historically been the business center of NC (before Charlotte's rise) and the Triad and is/has been associated with more known brands: BB&T, Wachovia, Hanes, Krispy Kreme, etc. It is home to one of the most prestigious universities in the state (the nation even) and is more known for tobacco; heck, there are two major cigarette brands that bear the name of the city. Winston-Salem is certainly more known in the arts world, being home to NCSA and the National Black Theatre Festival. I think over the past couple of decades, Greensboro has had a higher profile due to the convention industry and hosting events that normally go to larger cities though.
Oh, and every multinodal metro isn't prioritized by the lead city with respect to nomenclature, with Hampton Roads (Virginia Beach-Norfolk) and the Bay Area (San Jose-San Francisco) being notable examples. In the case of Greensboro and Winston-Salem, the difference really is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Anyone who's visited both cities can tell that Winston was the more historically significant city; it has a larger downtown with a good bit more historic structures, not even counting Old Salem and Historic Bethabara. It's certainly more of an "old money" town than Greensboro, and it shows.
I agree that Greensboro could have done more over the years to build up its downtown, but I think it has made some notable moves towards that end in recent years with the ballpark, Center City Park, the new park and performing arts center under construction, the greenway, etc. But again, due to their status as midsized cities, neither Greensboro or Winston on their own will offer as much as a singular city that anchors a similarly-sized metro area.
You can't be serious? We live here, Greensboro is known to be the primary city in the Triad, period. Just stop, please. I grew up in NC and it is inferred that the 3 primary cities in NC are Charlotte, Raleigh and Greensboro. You are trying to make an assessment as an outsider, it is what it is...ask anybody from NC the 3 most important cities in NC...that's what you'll get most of the time. Aside from the ACC, etc., it's geographically located on the I-85 corridor.
And anyone who thinks that Greensboro, High Point and Winston-Salem aren't part of the same MSA is simply an MSA criteria stickler or technocrat....we live here, it's the same damn metro.
You can't be serious? We live here, Greensboro is known to be the primary city in the Triad, period. Just stop, please. I grew up in NC and it is inferred that the 3 primary cities in NC are Charlotte, Raleigh and Greensboro. You are trying to make an assessment as an outsider, it is what it is...ask anybody from NC the 3 most important cities in NC...that's what you'll get most of the time. Aside from the ACC, etc., it's geographically located on the I-85 corridor.
And anyone who thinks that Greensboro, High Point and Winston-Salem aren't part of the same MSA is simply an MSA criteria stickler or technocrat....we live here, it's the same damn metro.
I live in the Triad (am a graduate of UNC Greensboro). I would say most people I know don't view the Triad as having a primary city. The Triad is primarily viewed as a balance between Greensboro and Winston-Salem, with High Point far behind. Locals who view Greensboro as the primary city would only do so because they've heard it has slightly more people within its city limits or because it has the airport.
People who live in Forsyth County tend to consider Downtown Winston-Salem as the main urban core for the Triad. There's residential bias in that of course, but also Downtown Winston-Salem is objectively bigger, has more streetlife (4th Street alone compares well with Elm St., not to mention Trade St. and Old Salem), and taller buildings. Urban core doesn't mean exactly the same thing as primary city though.
Most people who live outside the Triad consider Greensboro to be the primary city.
You can't be serious? We live here, Greensboro is known to be the primary city in the Triad, period. Just stop, please. I grew up in NC and it is inferred that the 3 primary cities in NC are Charlotte, Raleigh and Greensboro. You are trying to make an assessment as an outsider, it is what it is...ask anybody from NC the 3 most important cities in NC...that's what you'll get most of the time. Aside from the ACC, etc., it's geographically located on the I-85 corridor.
And anyone who thinks that Greensboro, High Point and Winston-Salem aren't part of the same MSA is simply an MSA criteria stickler or technocrat....we live here, it's the same damn metro.
I'm not an "outsider;" I'm a former resident of NC and have visited the Triad many times, know a LOT of people who live(d), work(ed), and were educated in the Triad, and have been active on many urban forums where NC'ers were regular participants. Everyone knows that Greensboro is NC's third-most populous city, but I've known several people who believe that Winston-Salem is the more advanced, urban city between the two, including a couple of people that participate on the NC subforum here on C-D--and no, they aren't all Winston-Salem homers (most aren't).
And no, Greensboro and Winston-Salem are no longer part of the same Metropolitan Statistical Area; that is an objective fact. However, Metropolitan Statistical Areas are based on commuting patterns and nothing more. It has nothing to do with a shared identity and cultural ties that define a larger region. The Triad is still the Triad; it just so happens that under the current rules, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and Burlington each get enough commuters to have their own distinct MSAs, but there's still enough cross-commuting throughout the region for them to qualify as a singular CSA. MSAs and CSAs are STATISTICAL designations, not cultural or social. That's where people get it twisted.
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