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Those suburbs are nothing more than bedroom communities and offer little to nothing on their own. Again, those suburbs of DFW I mentioned are business centers in their own right which facilitate a much greater level of commuting across the region. Plano is home to a SLEW of major F500 company operations/HQs and even has its own convention center, Irving has more office space than DT Dallas, Arlington is home to the Dallas Cowboys stadium, etc. The Triad has no suburbs that contribute to the overall region like that, not even close; the closest would be Asheboro with the zoo, if you consider Asheboro a suburb. And there's also no commuter rail connecting GSO and WS.
Practically everything that the Triad offers is found in GSO and WS themselves (and HP, to a lesser extent) particularly economically. That's simply not true of DFW. The similarities in the Triad you're highlighting are superficial which is why the region isn't a singular MSA.
There are really only two CSAs in the country that I think should be probably still be singular MSAs--the Triangle and the Bay Area. You could probably throw the Upstate of SC in as well but otherwise, I see the justification for GSO and WS having their own MSAs within a singular CSA.
But getting back to the original point, I simply don't see why you would expect GSO (or WS) to have all of the amenities of a 1.6 million region on its own when it doesn't carry the entire region. Would you expect DC, as a city, to stack up to Chicago simply because DC is the largest city in its 10 million CSA?
Well on the DC conversation, I don't view DC and Baltimore as the same metro, and I don't regard CSA's as a valid, realistic metric; I consider CSA's worthless. Also, while I think there's a gap from Chi to DC, I think it's not a large one, and that DC stacks up very well to Chi overall. But that's a different convo we'll continue some other day...
Listen, I can say the same thing about Winston and Greensboro, that they are sleepy, and slow, and are the "lead cities" only out of necessity yet it doesn't change the fact of their function within their metro and region...
Some things that Triad suburbs offer to the entire region:
-Elon University (Burlington, with its School of Law in Greensboro)
-Labcorp is in Burlington
-Davidson and Forsyth CC's service more than one county
-HPU is nationally recognized, which contributes to the region's educational reputation
-North Carolina Zoo in Asheboro
-textiles and furniture manufacturing is a region-wide economy. Historically and by reputation, High Point, Lexington, and Thomasville are all known for this
-PTI serves the entire region
-Dell plant in Kernersville
-PART bus from PTI extends service to 8 counties Express Bus Routes
-the road and Highway infrastructure supports the entire region
-PTRC Piedmont Triad Regional Council : About PTRC
-numerous outdoor parks, trails, tourist attractions
-Fox is in High Point; ION is in Burlington; CW is in Lexington
Obviously, the Triad has a lesser business climate than RDU, DFW, and many other areas. But then, Triad has never been business reputation. Why is that a point of debate? You cannot be serious that the Triad suburbs contribute "almost nothing" to the region. You can call these contributions "superficial"; I can call that statement ridiculous. "Why" the region isn't a singular MSA is irrelevant, because we know the Census criteria for determining such, but the Census criteria is inexact. For more than a few areas around the nation, the practical reality is that they function as a larger metro than the Census defined it as...
I'm not even a Triad booster, but I don't think that's fair. It is one metro area, anchored by Greensboro and Winston. I don't feel like I'm in a different region from Burlington to Greensboro to Winston...
Well on the DC conversation, I don't view DC and Baltimore as the same metro, and I don't regard CSA's as a valid, realistic metric; I consider CSA's worthless. Also, while I think there's a gap from Chi to DC, I think it's not a large one, and that DC stacks up very well to Chi overall. But that's a different convo we'll continue some other day...
Listen, I can say the same thing about Winston and Greensboro, that they are sleepy, and slow, and are the "lead cities" only out of necessity yet it doesn't change the fact of their function within their metro and region...
Some things that Triad suburbs offer to the entire region:
-Elon University (Burlington, with its School of Law in Greensboro)
-Labcorp is in Burlington
-Davidson and Forsyth CC's service more than one county
-HPU is nationally recognized, which contributes to the region's educational reputation
-North Carolina Zoo in Asheboro
-textiles and furniture manufacturing is a region-wide economy. Historically and by reputation, High Point, Lexington, and Thomasville are all known for this
-PTI serves the entire region
-Dell plant in Kernersville
-PART bus from PTI extends service to 8 counties Express Bus Routes
-the road and Highway infrastructure supports the entire region
-PTRC Piedmont Triad Regional Council : About PTRC
-numerous outdoor parks, trails, tourist attractions
-Fox is in High Point; ION is in Burlington; CW is in Lexington
Obviously, the Triad has a lesser business climate than RDU, DFW, and many other areas. But then, Triad has never been business reputation. Why is that a point of debate? You cannot be serious that the Triad suburbs contribute "almost nothing" to the region. You can call these contributions "superficial"; I can call that statement ridiculous. "Why" the region isn't a singular MSA is irrelevant, because we know the Census criteria for determining such, but the Census criteria is inexact. For more than a few areas around the nation, the practical reality is that they function as a larger metro than the Census defined it as...
I'm not even a Triad booster, but I don't think that's fair. It is one metro area, anchored by Greensboro and Winston. I don't feel like I'm in a different region from Burlington to Greensboro to Winston...
Nowadays I spend a lot of time in the Triad and agree with your analysis. I understand that the primary criterion used to define MSAs is based on commuting patterns but Gboro, WS, HP are one metro. In my opinion, impactful cities within 30-40 mile range/radius of the primary airport are part of the same MSA regardless of the official criteria used to define an MSA. Larger cities with multiple airports should use both airports to define it's MSA as one, overlapping and intersecting areas, etc.
The Triad, Triangle, etc are MSAs regardless of the official criteria used, it's simply off base to think otherwise because people take advantage of activities, events, etc in the area as part of their daily/weekly plans. That said, Greensboro should at least exhibit downtown activity representative of a 300k city or "MSA" that supports 750K. And it's not there yet for whatever reason. Of course HP resides in Guilford County and a part of that 750K but Greensboro is the most populous and lead city. It doesn't seem to dominate or have that level of metro significance as does Raleigh in RDU, Dallas in DFW, etc.
Well on the DC conversation, I don't view DC and Baltimore as the same metro, and I don't regard CSA's as a valid, realistic metric; I consider CSA's worthless. Also, while I think there's a gap from Chi to DC, I think it's not a large one, and that DC stacks up very well to Chi overall. But that's a different convo we'll continue some other day...
Listen, I can say the same thing about Winston and Greensboro, that they are sleepy, and slow, and are the "lead cities" only out of necessity yet it doesn't change the fact of their function within their metro and region...
Some things that Triad suburbs offer to the entire region:
-Elon University (Burlington, with its School of Law in Greensboro)
-Labcorp is in Burlington
-Davidson and Forsyth CC's service more than one county
-HPU is nationally recognized, which contributes to the region's educational reputation
-North Carolina Zoo in Asheboro
-textiles and furniture manufacturing is a region-wide economy. Historically and by reputation, High Point, Lexington, and Thomasville are all known for this
-PTI serves the entire region
-Dell plant in Kernersville
-PART bus from PTI extends service to 8 counties Express Bus Routes
-the road and Highway infrastructure supports the entire region
-PTRC Piedmont Triad Regional Council : About PTRC
-numerous outdoor parks, trails, tourist attractions
-Fox is in High Point; ION is in Burlington; CW is in Lexington
Obviously, the Triad has a lesser business climate than RDU, DFW, and many other areas. But then, Triad has never been business reputation. Why is that a point of debate? You cannot be serious that the Triad suburbs contribute "almost nothing" to the region. You can call these contributions "superficial"; I can call that statement ridiculous. "Why" the region isn't a singular MSA is irrelevant, because we know the Census criteria for determining such, but the Census criteria is inexact. For more than a few areas around the nation, the practical reality is that they function as a larger metro than the Census defined it as...
I'm not even a Triad booster, but I don't think that's fair. It is one metro area, anchored by Greensboro and Winston. I don't feel like I'm in a different region from Burlington to Greensboro to Winston...
First of all, High Point isn't a suburb; it's a primary city within the Triad ("Triad" means "three") so you can strike all of those things off the list. Also I excluded Burlington from consideration here due to size but it's not a suburb either.
You know the Dell plant in Kernersville closed years ago, right?
The rest of your examples really have nothing to do with being in a metro region. Community colleges? Roads? Bus service? Parks? Trails? Textile plants? Local channels? You can find almost all of these things in a decent-sized county that's not part of a metro area. Again, how can this even BEGIN to compare with DFW suburbs that house multiple F500 company operations, TONS of office space (again, the suburb of Irvington has more office space than downtown Dallas), major venues, etc.? You may not agree with Census criteria for CSAs/MSAs, but the fact of the matter is that the criteria is applied CONSISTENTLY. Because DFW has a lot more stuff scattered across the region, this facilitates a much greater level of regional cross-commuting and thus it is categorized as a singular MSA. That's not nearly as true in the Triad, so that's why it's a CSA. It really is that simple.
But anyway, all of this is besides the point as we've seriously gotten off track. I still don't understand why you'd expect Greensboro, being the size that it is and being one of three primary cities in the Triad, to be representative of the entire 1.6 million region. That's the question here and it's baffling to me, especially considering the fact that Greensboro hasn't historically been the largest city of the Triad and even today, Winston still has a leg up on it in several areas. Winston has a richer history and is more well-rounded overall than Greensboro IMO, but even it doesn't compare to a singular city that anchors a metro of 1.6 million. It's the same reason why Raleigh, as a city, doesn't stack up to Charlotte despite both being the largest cities in similarly-sized regions: Charlotte is THE city of its metro and has just about everything while Raleigh has to share the spotlight with Durham and Chapel Hill, the other primary cities of the Triangle.
Nowadays I spend a lot of time in the Triad and agree with your analysis. I understand that the primary criterion used to define MSAs is based on commuting patterns but Gboro, WS, HP are one metro. In my opinion, impactful cities within 30-40 mile range/radius of the primary airport are part of the same MSA regardless of the official criteria used to define an MSA. Larger cities with multiple airports should use both airports to define it's MSA as one, overlapping and intersecting areas, etc.
The Triad, Triangle, etc are MSAs regardless of the official criteria used, it's simply off base to think otherwise because people take advantage of activities, events, etc in the area as part of their daily/weekly plans. That said, Greensboro should at least exhibit downtown activity representative of a 300k city or "MSA" that supports 750K. And it's not there yet for whatever reason. Of course HP resides in Guilford County and a part of that 750K but Greensboro is the most populous and lead city. It doesn't seem to dominate or have that level of metro significance as does Raleigh in RDU, Dallas in DFW, etc.
Whether or not the Triad should be a singular MSA is really off-topic and I actually see why they aren't, but it's easy to see why Greensboro doesn't "dominate." Raleigh and Dallas are, by any measure or metric, indisputably the largest cities in their regions by far. Greensboro isn't as it and Winston-Salem are the same size and thus each has more or less equal influence in the region. Downtown Greensboro does have a small footprint, but Winston is the historic business center of the region so it has the bigger, taller downtown. While it's not the best performing city in its tier, I still think Greensboro does a bit better than you give it credit for though. Earlier you said that Greensboro acts more like a town of 30K which I find to be quite laughable. My hometown in SC is around that size and the only thing it and Greensboro have in common are two HBCUs; otherwise, Greensboro absolutely blows it out of the water in every conceivable way by a wide margin, and that's no exaggeration.
But anyway, all of this is besides the point as we've seriously gotten off track. I still don't understand why you'd expect Greensboro, being the size that it is and being one of three primary cities in the Triad, to be representative of the entire 1.6 million region. That's the question here and it's baffling to me, especially considering the fact that Greensboro hasn't historically been the largest city of the Triad and even today, Winston still has a leg up on it in several areas. Winston has a richer history and is more well-rounded overall than Greensboro IMO, but even it doesn't compare to a singular city that anchors a metro of 1.6 million. It's the same reason why Raleigh, as a city, doesn't stack up to Charlotte despite both being the largest cities in similarly-sized regions: Charlotte is THE city of its metro and has just about everything while Raleigh has to share the spotlight with Durham and Chapel Hill, the other primary cities of the Triangle.
"We" didn't get off track; YOU chose to dispute why I consider the two to be of the same metro, like I'm alone in that opinion, like you've never heard it before, like it's stupid to even suggest they are, like many natives and residents of the region don't believe the same...
I could have done without the lecture on MSA/CSA. I know "why" they are considered seperate. I just supported my opinion with examples of how I feel it is one larger metro. Really, the fact that you scoff at the consideration of the Triad as one metro and asserted that the suburbs contribute "nothing" to the metro--seriously? Do you really believe that the suburbs of the Triad contribute "nothing"? You're probably alone in that opinion...
As to my initial statement on the cultural offerings of Greensboro/Winston, if you read earlier into the thread, and into threads I've commented on the NC boards, part of the reason it is disappointing to me is that, based on what I was previously led to believe upon my time in NC, is that theyou offered more. I've mentioned this at least twice before. Particularly, that the nightlife was a lot better than it actually is....
The other part of that, is even though it's supposed metro of 750K, things like nightlife are accessible and experienced by people from outside the "official" Greensboro metro. I've known people to travel to the Triad for weekends from DC, all across NC (Fayetteville, Durham, Charlotte), and I myself have never resided in the Triad, yet I've been there on weekends twice this year. That being the case, the expectation is that somewhere in the Triad has something indicative of the larger metro it serves. I specifically mentioned that maybe Greensboro doesn't have to support it itself, but if the collective Triad experience is that of a smaller region, that's a minus for me...
"We" didn't get off track; YOU chose to dispute why I consider the two to be of the same metro, like I'm alone in that opinion, like you've never heard it before, like it's stupid to even suggest they are, like many natives and residents of the region don't believe the same...
I could have done without the lecture on MSA/CSA. I know "why" they are considered seperate. I just supported my opinion with examples of how I feel it is one larger metro. Really, the fact that you scoff at the consideration of the Triad as one metro and asserted that the suburbs contribute "nothing" to the metro--seriously? Do you really believe that the suburbs of the Triad contribute "nothing"? You're probably alone in that opinion...
Yes, we got off track; I wasn't talking to myself. We got sidetracked when you stated, "These tiny pockets of nightlife are just underwhelming I'm size and quantity for a city with a metro approaching 1.6 million." That was a very misleading statement because Greensboro isn't the sole primary city of its metro, like Nashville, Charlotte, etc. That's kind of where things got off track.
And I didn't know you'd take my statement about the Triad suburbs offering 'nothing' so hyperliterally. Of course the suburbs of the Triad will offer the same types of things you can find in just about any other town of similar size: basic businesses, community colleges, parks, restaurants, a unique attraction here and there, etc. I didn't think that needed to explicitly be said. However, since you chose to use DFW as a point of comparison, it needed to be pointed out that NO suburb of the Triad comes even remotely close to the larger suburbs of DFW which, on their own, would have enough to anchor their own MSAs. None of the Triad suburbs house any of the region's F500 headquarters, whereas half of DFW's F500 headquarters are found in its suburbs. That in itself is a VERY significant difference. So yes, when looking at the setup of DFW versus the Triad, I completely see why the Triad is one CSA consisting of separate MSAs. Just riding around both regions (which I have done) demonstrates that.
Quote:
As to my initial statement on the cultural offerings of Greensboro/Winston, if you read earlier into the thread, and into threads I've commented on the NC boards, part of the reason it is disappointing to me is that, based on what I was previously led to believe upon my time in NC, is that they offered more. I've mentioned this at least twice before. Particularly, that the nightlife was a lot better than it actually is....
The other part of that, is even though it's supposed metro of 750K, things like nightlife are accessible and experienced by people from outside the "official" Greensboro metro. I've known people to travel to the Triad for weekends from DC, all across NC (Fayetteville, Durham, Charlotte), and I myself have never resided in the Triad, yet I've been there on weekends twice this year. That being the case, the expectation is that somewhere in the Triad has something indicative of the larger metro it serves. I specifically mentioned that maybe Greensboro doesn't have to support it itself, but if the collective Triad experience is that of a smaller region, that's a minus for me...
Hey, you don't have to agree with me...
The thing with the Triad is that it is probably the only mid/major region in the country with the particular set-up that it has with its two largest cities being essentially the same size; in other multinodal metro areas, there is a clear dominant city but that's not the case with the Triad. So basically, Greensboro and Winston-Salem are more or less duplications of each other in terms of basic amenities and offerings, so instead of one large city dominating the region, you have two midsized ones offering much of the same type of things that you can find in other regional midsized cities, most of which are the sole primary city of their own MSAs.
And Greensboro really isn't a tourist magnet, so it can't rely on visitors to sustain a nightlife scene beyond its capabilities. Now the city does get a lot of conventions and major events for its size due to its large venues, but none of those venues are located downtown so that makes a difference.
Winston-Salem has a better downtown that I think offers more overall, but even then, you're not going to be walking around thinking to yourself that you feel like you're in a city the size of Nashville or Jacksonville.
Basically it boils down to this: the Triad consists of smaller, independent cities that just happened to be within close proximity of each other and over time, started growing towards each other. In other metros that revolve around a singular city, that city grew and grew and began swallowing up suburbs and even spawning new ones, thus asserting unchallenged dominance over its region. The dynamic is just different in nature between these two types of metro areas.
For those saying Downtown Greensboro is weaker than Downtown Greenville, I agree after having been to both. But Downtown Winston-Salem is a stronger contender against Downtown Greenville. Downtown Winston has historic Old Salem, 4th Street, the Downtown Arts District on Trade St., and the pleasant West End, all of which are walkable to each other. It's not as family or retail-focused as Downtown Greenville, and Greenville has way more pedestrian activity on Main St. and at Falls Park than Downtown Winston, but you can have a fun time in Downtown Winston, and it has a lot of character for a North Carolina city. I also like the "Micro-cultures" within Downtown Winston: Old Salem has a charming, historic, and sophisticated feel, 4th Street has a hipster/mini-Northern city feel (on a very limited scale but I get that vibe in the few central blocks of 4th Street), the Arts District is artsy (obviously), and West End is classic Southern.
I know this is a Greenville vs. Greensboro thread, but Downtown Winston's relative proximity to Greensboro helps compensate a bit for Downtown Greensboro's weaknesses. It's not difficult for most Greensboro residents to get to Downtown Winston in a little over 30 minutes. Whether Downtown Winston is better than Downtown Greenville is up for debate, of course. Greenville definitely has better retail, more pedestrian activity, and the lovely Falls Park.
For those saying Downtown Greensboro is weaker than Downtown Greenville, I agree after having been to both. But Downtown Winston-Salem is a stronger contender against Downtown Greenville. Downtown Winston has historic Old Salem, 4th Street, the Downtown Arts District on Trade St., and the pleasant West End, all of which are walkable to each other. It's not as family or retail-focused as Downtown Greenville, and Greenville has way more pedestrian activity on Main St. and at Falls Park than Downtown Winston, but you can have a fun time in Downtown Winston, and it has a lot of character for a North Carolina city. I also like the "Micro-cultures" within Downtown Winston: Old Salem has a charming, historic, and sophisticated feel, 4th Street has a hipster/mini-Northern city feel (on a very limited scale but I get that vibe in the few central blocks of 4th Street), the Arts District is artsy (obviously), and West End is classic Southern.
I know this is a Greenville vs. Greensboro thread, but Downtown Winston's relative proximity to Greensboro helps compensate a bit for Downtown Greensboro's weaknesses. It's not difficult for most Greensboro residents to get to Downtown Winston in a little over 30 minutes. Whether Downtown Winston is better than Downtown Greenville is up for debate, of course. Greenville definitely has better retail, more pedestrian activity, and the lovely Falls Park.
Whether or not the Triad should be a singular MSA is really off-topic and I actually see why they aren't, but it's easy to see why Greensboro doesn't "dominate." Raleigh and Dallas are, by any measure or metric, indisputably the largest cities in their regions by far. Greensboro isn't as it and Winston-Salem are the same size and thus each has more or less equal influence in the region. Downtown Greensboro does have a small footprint, but Winston is the historic business center of the region so it has the bigger, taller downtown. While it's not the best performing city in its tier, I still think Greensboro does a bit better than you give it credit for though. Earlier you said that Greensboro acts more like a town of 30K which I find to be quite laughable. My hometown in SC is around that size and the only thing it and Greensboro have in common are two HBCUs; otherwise, Greensboro absolutely blows it out of the water in every conceivable way by a wide margin, and that's no exaggeration.
I was exaggerating about the 30k but those who live in the Triad as I once did treat it as one metro. I know plenty of people who commute between the 3 cities, attend events, etc on a whim. Downtown Winston to downtown Gboro is 30 minutes. We all understand the rigid definition used to define MSAs and for the Triangle and Triad not to be considered one MSA is utterly ridiculous.
I do agree that Gboro isn't the dominate city in the metro but is considered the "lead" city. It should have more activity happening downtown which is hampered by short-sighted leadership and hopefully that changes soon.
I was exaggerating about the 30k but those who live in the Triad as I once did treat it as one metro. I know plenty of people who commute between the 3 cities, attend events, etc on a whim. Downtown Winston to downtown Gboro is 30 minutes. We all understand the rigid definition used to define MSAs and for the Triangle and Triad not to be considered one MSA is utterly ridiculous.
I do agree that Gboro isn't the dominate city in the metro but is considered the "lead" city. It should have more activity happening downtown which is hampered by short-sighted leadership and hopefully that changes soon.
Repped!
This is all I was saying, and you encapsulated it perfectly. I never lived in the Triad. However, I lived in Fayetteville and Charlotte. My sister went to WSSU. I know scores of people from all over the Triad, and while I don't claim to speak for 'everyone', I do know that the vast majority of people I know from the Triad consider it one metro; bump the flawed Census definition...
You also understood my secondary point. Sure, the Greensboro isn't a traditional lead city, and in scale it's only marginally ahead of Winston, but 'most' people consider Greensboro the "main" city of the two, for lack of a better word. I appreciate your post...
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