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Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,550,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11
Seattle has one of the lowest # of people per household in the country. Its household density is almost the same as Chicago's and Philly's. I know both Seattle and Baltimore well, not close, Seattle is far, far more walkable.
This simply is not true from an urban street layout, or structural perspective. Seattle is not "more" walkable AT ALL than Baltimore, let alone "far far more walkable". Especially not city-wide, with all those hills in Seattle. It may be EQUALLY as walkable (overall), and Seattle definitely has a solid transit usage, although in the city core of Baltimore transit usage is strong, it's the rest of the city/metro where that drops.
From a "desirable" neighborhood/city perspective sure with Seattle the average person would like to walk around there. But Baltimore is curb by curb, corner by corner, has a tight knit street grid through most of it's core, especially from North Ave southward. It's just that Baltimore has many areas that are desolate or not desirable to see/ walk through, but the build out of the city is more urban than Seattle in structure.
Last edited by the resident09; 12-21-2020 at 01:34 PM..
Even within city limits, Seattle is quite a bit more transit oriented. And walking/biking oriented. From the 2019 ACS:
--Baltimore: 15.4% transit, 6.6% walk, 1.2% bike, 61.5% drove alone.
--Seattle: 25.1% transit, 10.7% walk, 3.7% bike, 44.5% drove alone.
I'd downgrade Seattle for a lack of sidewalks on many streets in areas incorporated in the 50s or so. But it's very walkable otherwise. You're always within reasonable walking distance of a retail strip. There's nothing unwalkable about bungalows.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,550,614 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25
Even within city limits, Seattle is quite a bit more transit oriented. And walking/biking oriented. From the 2019 ACS:
--Baltimore: 15.4% transit, 6.6% walk, 1.2% bike, 61.5% drove alone.
--Seattle: 25.1% transit, 10.7% walk, 3.7% bike, 44.5% drove alone.
I'd downgrade Seattle for a lack of sidewalks on many streets in areas incorporated in the 50s or so. But it's very walkable otherwise. You're always within reasonable walking distance of a retail strip. There's nothing unwalkable about bungalows.
It would be great to see the transit percentage shrunk to the inner core of both cities, and how they stack up.
It would be great to see the transit percentage shrunk to the inner core of both cities, and how they stack up.
Maybe. More interesting to me is the story beyond the percentages. Seattle is the only city in the US where I’ve seen waves of white collar workers getting off buses. It’s pretty remarkable. I expect their transit percentages to go up after more rail opens but I wonder how much more given how many already ride buses?
This simply is not true from an urban street layout, or structural perspective. Seattle is not "more" walkable AT ALL than Baltimore, let alone "far far more walkable". Especially not city-wide, with all those hills in Seattle. It may be EQUALLY as walkable (overall), and Seattle definitely has a solid transit usage, although in the city core of Baltimore transit usage is strong, it's the rest of the city/metro where that drops.
From a "desirable" neighborhood/city perspective sure with Seattle the average person would like to walk around there. But Baltimore is curb by curb, corner by corner, has a tight knit street grid through most of it's core, especially from North Ave southward. It's just that Baltimore has many areas that are desolate or not desirable to see/ walk through, but the build out of the city is more urban than Seattle in structure.
Being walkable is way more than about the apparent density or "build out" of housing infrastructure as you're arguing. In Seattle almost every residential block has traffic-calming roundabouts in the intersections, speed bumps, etc. The sidewalks are wide and also tucked in behind a row of parked cars and typically a grassy/tree area. This is why Seattle is far more walkable, even for 2 year olds. This kind of walking environment is cohesive across Seattle neighborhoods, creating a uniform pedestrian environment and a feeling that you can walk everywhere in Seattle. Regarding hills, there are 500 public staircases across the city. The robust bus system and employer-sponsored bus passes in Seattle also makes walking easy, it's easy to hop on a bus when you see one (at least pre-Covid) and walk the last half mile. The bus system is incredible for a city of Seattle's size.
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6359...7i16384!8i8192
A Seattle neighborhood like this is entirely walkable even if full of SFHs. You can walk to the grocery stores, parks, public libraries, pools, gyms, restaurants, coffeeshops, bus stops nearby. And doing it comfortably and safely.
I get your point about the tight knit street grid in Baltimore, but also in some ways this makes it less nice to walk around. A lot of Baltimore's sidewalks outside of a few pockets are narrow and directly against the road one one side and against stairs/doors on the other side, and with little tree canopy.
I think we just have different opinions of urban. I find Virginia Highlands to be really quaint with alot of charm however I don't find it urban at all. It has the few blocks of shops along North Highland Ave and on the south border on Ponce and these are not flanked by high density urban style housing, most of the area is single family homes.
Notice that I specifically referenced the commercial districts of neighborhoods (old streetcar suburbs) like Va-Hi; I'm well aware that the dominant residential type is detached SFH but seeing as though Atlanta has a plethora of these neighborhood commercial districts, I think they are worth a mention.
I never disputed the presence of suburban apartment complexes within Atlanta city limits. I was only highlighting the urbanity that exists beyond downtown/Peachtree Street. It's also interesting to see how corridors like Ponce and Metropolitan are fleshing out, largely due to development spreading outward from key Beltline nodes.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,550,614 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guineas
Being walkable is way more than about the apparent density or "build out" of housing infrastructure as you're arguing. In Seattle almost every residential block has traffic-calming roundabouts in the intersections, speed bumps, etc. The sidewalks are wide and also tucked in behind a row of parked cars and typically a grassy/tree area. This is why Seattle is far more walkable, even for 2 year olds. This kind of walking environment is cohesive across Seattle neighborhoods, creating a uniform pedestrian environment and a feeling that you can walk everywhere in Seattle. Regarding hills, there are 500 public staircases across the city. The robust bus system and employer-sponsored bus passes in Seattle also makes walking easy, it's easy to hop on a bus when you see one (at least pre-Covid) and walk the last half mile. The bus system is incredible for a city of Seattle's size.
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6359...7i16384!8i8192
A Seattle neighborhood like this is entirely walkable even if full of SFHs. You can walk to the grocery stores, parks, public libraries, pools, gyms, restaurants, coffeeshops, bus stops nearby. And doing it comfortably and safely.
I get your point about the tight knit street grid in Baltimore, but also in some ways this makes it less nice to walk around. A lot of Baltimore's sidewalks outside of a few pockets are narrow and directly against the road one one side and against stairs/doors on the other side, and with little tree canopy.
I overall agree with you, and in the past decade or two Seattle seems to have done close to everything right from an urban planning standpoint so it's hard to refute. I'm just more getting at the original urban build of the two cities and what defines the two. Baltimore's layout, especially in and around the inner core/downtown is easily walkable. Quite honestly these two are apples in oranges to some extent with Baltimore having the more traditional urban bones, but Seattle being much better suited for urban infill across various parts of the city, and much more transit oriented. Both are walkable, but Seattle may have more areas of the city where one would "go walking".
Last edited by the resident09; 12-21-2020 at 04:40 PM..
Notice that I specifically referenced the commercial districts of neighborhoods (old streetcar suburbs) like Va-Hi; I'm well aware that the dominant residential type is detached SFH but seeing as though Atlanta has a plethora of these neighborhood commercial districts, I think they are worth a mention.
I never disputed the presence of suburban apartment complexes within Atlanta city limits. I was only highlighting the urbanity that exists beyond downtown/Peachtree Street. It's also interesting to see how corridors like Ponce and Metropolitan are fleshing out, largely due to development spreading outward from key Beltline nodes.
You'll see upthread that I mentioned that pockets exist outside of the downtown and Peachtree St area. I think we're saying the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebck120
Was there early 2019. Theres been some developments but the city really isn't that urban outside of downtown and Peachtree St. You have smaller pockets here and there like Little five points but its just a few blocks of street retail. Atlantic station is just an outdoor shopping center on top of a giant parking garage. Cabbagetown is cute but again it's just a small pocket. Even in Midtown, once you go 4 blocks east or west from Peachtree St. you start to see single family homes on single lots and suburban style apartment complexes and there's tons of strip malls all over the city....
I'd say DC is ahead of Philly, which is limited to Center City. And with recent growth, might even put Seattle ahead of Philly. But after NY, Bos, DC, SF, Chi, Seattle, Philly, it's a fairly big drop off. Portland and San Diego are solid, but fewer walkable blocks. LA was making progress, but ruined by homeless and awful government. Minneapolis might be #10, def ahead of the rest of the Midwest besides Chicago. Baltimore is way down given population loss and crime. Besides three blocks on Pratt Street, that is not a walkable city.
It sounds like you've never stepped foot in Philly or Baltimore ever.
You'll see upthread that I mentioned that pockets exist outside of the downtown and Peachtree St area. I think we're saying the same thing.
But the Beltline and West Midtown were pretty big omissions on your part IMO.
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