Washington DC, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, and Atlanta: Rank 1-5 Most-to-Least Southern (better, place)
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I absolutely agree with parts of NOVA looking just like Atlanta. I didn't get a vibe of Hampton Roads being less southern that Richmond, it actually felt equally, if not more southern than Richmond.
Literally the only reason that people claim Richmond is more southern than Hampton Roads (and several other places) is because it was the capital of the Confederacy....a regime that ended 153 years ago, and that was only active for four years of Richmond's long, illustrious history as a city...
That's the ONLY reason people claim Richmond is more southern, and that assertion holds no weight. Characteristics that are more regularly associated with the Northeast (pace of life, accents, architecture, travel and connectivity to other Northeast places, etc etc etc), while Richmond absolutely doesn't give off a distinct Northeastern vibe, it embodies those "Northeastern" characteristics far more than anywhere in Hampton Roads. Like it's literally not even close...
We all know that people's perceptions are slow to change. It's something Birmingham and Detroit and other cities also deal with for other reasons, and for Richmond, that window means more to some people than reality. It doesn't matter how many people post evidence that Richmond was drafted into that position, rather than volunteering for it; it doesn't matter the articles that can be found that illustrate pro-Union sentiments in the city before the war; it doesn't matter to those people that Richmond, like DC and Baltimore, was never deeply southern to begin with. The proof in that is how culturally contrasting Richmond is from the rest of the South today. It is the definition of upper South; It's smaller size just correlates to it being later in its "was South, now is North" public perception development than DC and Baltimore, two cities it is more alike than any other city in the entire South, two cities it shares varying degree of cultural connectivity to, etc...
I've given many examples on my travels and people who don't consider Richmond part of the modern South, even though it is. It's definitely an outlier though, and much different from anywhere in Hampton Roads...
As it relates to DC, I only mention Richmond because for centuries it's had strong cultural associations with DC, and those associations have only strengthened with time, strengthen by the year. Richmond is also less southern than the other options on this list, and "most" people by now are aware of Richmond as part of the BosWash/Northeast corridor, even though it isn't in the Northeast. There's absolutely no way DC is more southern than the other topic cities, but there is more than enough southern nature to point out in DC, even if it's not much southern today, especially when comparing DC to places that have always been northern...
Literally the only reason that people claim Richmond is more southern than Hampton Roads (and several other places) is because it was the capital of the Confederacy....a regime that ended 153 years ago, and that was only active for four years of Richmond's long, illustrious history as a city...
That's the ONLY reason people claim Richmond is more southern, and that assertion holds no weight.
From what I've seen, people tend to say that Richmond is a Southern city due to its status as the Confederate capital but I've mostly heard Hampton Roads being described as less Southern due to the large military presence which gives it a more transient feel.
From what I've seen, people tend to say that Richmond is a Southern city due to its status as the Confederate capital but I've mostly heard Hampton Roads being described as less Southern due to the large military presence which gives it a more transient feel.
Right, which is false perception because Hampton Roads is plenty southern. The Peninsula can't be called anything but, and the Southside is transient but southern still, even in Norfolk City...
Literally the only reason that people claim Richmond is more southern than Hampton Roads (and several other places) is because it was the capital of the Confederacy....a regime that ended 153 years ago, and that was only active for four years of Richmond's long, illustrious history as a city...
That's the ONLY reason people claim Richmond is more southern, and that assertion holds no weight. Characteristics that are more regularly associated with the Northeast (pace of life, accents, architecture, travel and connectivity to other Northeast places, etc etc etc), while Richmond absolutely doesn't give off a distinct Northeastern vibe, it embodies those "Northeastern" characteristics far more than anywhere in Hampton Roads. Like it's literally not even close...
We all know that people's perceptions are slow to change. It's something Birmingham and Detroit and other cities also deal with for other reasons, and for Richmond, that window means more to some people than reality. It doesn't matter how many people post evidence that Richmond was drafted into that position, rather than volunteering for it; it doesn't matter the articles that can be found that illustrate pro-Union sentiments in the city before the war; it doesn't matter to those people that Richmond, like DC and Baltimore, was never deeply southern to begin with. The proof in that is how culturally contrasting Richmond is from the rest of the South today. It is the definition of upper South; It's smaller size just correlates to it being later in its "was South, now is North" public perception development than DC and Baltimore, two cities it is more alike than any other city in the entire South, two cities it shares varying degree of cultural connectivity to, etc...
I've given many examples on my travels and people who don't consider Richmond part of the modern South, even though it is. It's definitely an outlier though, and much different from anywhere in Hampton Roads...
As it relates to DC, I only mention Richmond because for centuries it's had strong cultural associations with DC, and those associations have only strengthened with time, strengthen by the year. Richmond is also less southern than the other options on this list, and "most" people by now are aware of Richmond as part of the BosWash/Northeast corridor, even though it isn't in the Northeast. There's absolutely no way DC is more southern than the other topic cities, but there is more than enough southern nature to point out in DC, even if it's not much southern today, especially when comparing DC to places that have always been northern...
You know people speak in the civil war as if it happened last year. This site has always, almost solely, categorized a city by their stance during the civil war era. Yes, I agree that people's perceptions of a city, especially from negative to positive, hell, people think that Chernobyl will be inhabitable before Detroit is, and from what I've been hearing, Detroit is making a comeback.
This also raises the question: if so many cities in the south are becoming less southern because they've become so transient, does that mean that NYC is less northern because it, too, has become so transient?
You know people speak in the civil war as if it happened last year. This site has always, almost solely, categorized a city by their stance during the civil war era. Yes, I agree that people's perceptions of a city, especially from negative to positive, hell, people think that Chernobyl will be inhabitable before Detroit is, and from what I've been hearing, Detroit is making a comeback.
This also raises the question: if so many cities in the south are becoming less southern because they've become so transient, does that mean that NYC is less northern because it, too, has become so transient?
Good point on the Civil War era that we use to categorize states to this region, forever. The answer to your question, when we read the history of the country, the North was more open to accepting outsiders (well, that's the perception anyway) and that stuck.
I grew up in the area, too. I also never heard anyone refer to themselves as southerners...
When I lived in New York, I was struck with how different the DMV actually is from the Northeast, just a few hours away.
It's crazy to think it's more southern than any city in this thread though. Lol...
Love the honest write up. I agree with it.
Just wanted to add a little to it.
Though, I wasn't raised in DC as you, I have lived in the DC area for a decade... And as one who was born & raised in the South (Georgia & Carolina) viewed DC as a Northeastern city. And at work in DC I was involved in a debate with a guy there that wanted to hang his Confederate flag in the office. He claimed it was his "heritage." Now, I'm not bringing this up to start that debate here, this isn't the place for it, but the point is that when he said that, we laughed at him because he was from Maryland. He was so upset and argued that he's Southern being from Maryland because he was born & raised below the Mason Dixon line in MD. I thought his point was ridiculous then and still do now...
I also lived in New York (Brooklyn) for a short couple of years, and I can agree with it being significantly different that the DMV... But expecting all North Eastern cities to be alike is pointless. New Orleans & Atlanta are nothing alike, yet both Southern. Phoenix and San Diego are nothing alike, yet both South Western. Is San Fran considered Pacific North west just because it's nothing like Los Angeles? It's still Western.
Back in the early 90s we did a school field trip to DC and DC was viewed as a "Southern" city, at least from us in the uppermidwest (Detroit). One of the teachers warned us they say coke down there in DC for all soda (first time I heard that). When we got there, our tour guide addressed us as y'll, and there were a plethora of black saxophonist on the streets playing for money - I still remember DC as the first Southern city I traveled to.
Obviously, the list has better examples (ehem, Atlanta) but I'm a bit shocked that some people don't see anything Southern about DC.
Though, I wasn't raised in DC as you, I have lived in the DC area for a decade... And as one who was born & raised in the South (Georgia & Carolina) viewed DC as a Northeastern city. And at work in DC I was involved in a debate with a guy there that wanted to hang his Confederate flag in the office. He claimed it was his "heritage." Now, I'm not bringing this up to start that debate here, this isn't the place for it, but the point is that when he said that, we laughed at him because he was from Maryland. He was so upset and argued that he's Southern being from Maryland because he was born & raised below the Mason Dixon line in MD. I thought his point was ridiculous then and still do now...
I also lived in New York (Brooklyn) for a short couple of years, and I can agree with it being significantly different that the DMV... But expecting all North Eastern cities to be alike is pointless. New Orleans & Atlanta are nothing alike, yet both Southern. Phoenix and San Diego are nothing alike, yet both South Western. Is San Fran considered Pacific North west just because it's nothing like Los Angeles? It's still Western.
Do you see what you did there? lol
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