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Yeah, high culture has nothing to do with New York City's cultural prominence.
E.g., because of the Cleveland Orchestra's annual tours to Europe to high acclaim, Cleveland likely is much more prominent in Europe than any of the other cities in this thread.
Note that the New York Times regularly covers the Cleveland Orchestra and the Cleveland Museum of Art. I've provided links in other posts to recent articles. Please post NYT articles about the other three cities' high cultural institutions. I do know the New York Times covered the reopening of Cincinnati's renovated Music Hall.
Apart from high cultural institutions, Cleveland's Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum likely receives more press coverage than any other cultural institution in these four cities.
Cleveland has a really outstanding orchestra, but you really need to realize how niche of things you're talking about. I live in Paris for example, they've come to Paris, but 99.999% of the population isn't really aware of this fact (although I did see a flyer in the metro for it). In France at least, I'd say more people probably know St. Louis for its connection to France and often the Arch.
Come on, now. Props to the Cleveland Orchestra and Cleveland Museum of Art and the Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame-- first class institutions by any measure. But St. Louis has some A-list cultural amenities too that get plenty of international acclaim and consistently rank in the Top 5 or Top 10 lists of their respective categories, among them Forest Park, the Saint Louis Zoo and Missouri Botanical Garden, all of which outshine any comparable cultural attraction in the other cities on this list, and of course the City Museum, which defies all conventional labels and is without peer in the world, much less the other four cities discussed in this thread. Oh, and then there's, umm... THE ARCH, which all by itself distinguishes our skyline from every other city on the planet. Show the average Californian or Texan or New Yorker a skyline photo of Baltimore or Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Cincinnati and they wouldn't have a clue. But St. Louis? Instantly recognizable. In terms of wow factor, none of the other cities can touch the visual wonder of the Arch. From any angle it's magnificent, and you can bet it's on anyone's bucket list who's interested in architecture, engineering or American history.
+1, I'd also like to point out that what most Europeans seem to find interesting about the US isn't exactly what a lot of people think.
Most europeans, in my experience, are interested in classic vacation things like the beach and mountains, NYC, etc., but then other specific US things are very stereo-typical "Americana" stuff: route 66, wild west/big open spaces/national parks, etc. Very few are interested in coming all the way to the US for a city's orchestra or museums (NYC and such aside), why is someone from Paris, London, etc. going to really plan a trip to the other side of the world for things they have in spades right in their own cities?
I disagree. Although, on the City-Data forum, such an assertion may be made because of all the relentless bad press St. Louis receives concerning crime, racial tension and blight, it cannot be automatically inserted in this thread, namely because Cincinnati claims exactly the same thing stemming from its own consistently misrepresented and underrated economic strengths and global connections. Now that a strong, succinct case has been presented in Cincinnati's behalf, it's making numerous other forum members quite uncomfortable and causing adverse reactions.
Nevertheless, what the new narrative niw says is that no one need blindly accept someone's assertion that St. Louis has somehow surpassed Pittsburgh and Cincinnati to become the equal of Baltimore. My list - still based upon strategic metro importance, but not necessarily global influence - suggests otherwise:
* Baltimore * Cincinnati-Pittsburgh (or Pittsburgh-Cincinnati) * Cleveland-St. Louis (or St. Louis-Cleveland)
Because you're cherry picking what makes Cincy look better, not as bad as the orchestra conversation, but same idea. I used the same data you used to put down Cleveland but I added St. Louis, since Cincy didn't do well you ignored it.
St. Louis - 2,807,002
Pittsburgh - 2,342,299
Cincinnati - 2,165,139
Cleveland - 2,056,405
Columbus - 2,041,520
Not to pile on Cincinnati, but this precinct voting map shows how politically conservative the Cincinnati area is compared to the other cities in this discussion. The blue area of Cincinnati is a lot smaller than just about any other major city. Zoom and compare the blue areas of St. Louis vs. Cincy and Cleveland vs. Cincy. In fact, the entire western half of Hamilton county is DEEP red, not just bright red. Contrast that to the other cities' core counties-- yes, there are red portions of each of those counties, but they are not so solidly dark-- yikes!
Most europeans, in my experience, are interested in classic vacation things like the beach and mountains, NYC, etc., but then other specific US things are very stereo-typical "Americana" stuff: route 66, wild west/big open spaces/national parks, etc. Very few are interested in coming all the way to the US for a city's orchestra or museums (NYC and such aside), why is someone from Paris, London, etc. going to really plan a trip to the other side of the world for things they have in spades right in their own cities?
Most Europeans don't live in London or Paris, someone from Cork, Oslo, or Porto might be interested.
Cleveland has a really outstanding orchestra, but you really need to realize how niche of things you're talking about. I live in Paris for example, they've come to Paris, but 99.999% of the population isn't really aware of this fact (although I did see a flyer in the metro for it).
Preposterous math. Without substantiation, you claim essentially 100 percent of Parisians have never heard of the Cleveland Orchestra, even though you personally saw a flyer for it on the Metro.
Classical music is more popular in Europe than in most of the U.S., and it's not unfair to say that a very large percentage of those interested in classical music have heard of the Cleveland Orchestra, given its annual tours to Europe.
In France at least, I'd say more people probably know St. Louis for its connection to France and often the Arch.
Typical C-D put-down, unsubstantiated hyperbole.
The French must know much more about American history than most Americans do of French history. Given Americans' paltry knowledge of their own history (as someone who watches Jeopardy regularly), I doubt if many Americans could tell you much about Waterloo, let alone the decade in which it was fought. A vast majority of Americans who could tell you that Waterloo was a battle in which Napoleon suffered his final defeat likely don't know the country in which the battle took place (United Kingdom of Netherlands then; Belgium today).
Now if you said that many more Europeans know about Cleveland because of LeBron James and the Cavaliers than the Cleveland Orchestra, I likely would have believed you. To claim that St. Louis is more renown in France because of the Louisiana Purchase strains credibility IMO. And certainly in music crazed Austria and Germany, even that preposterous claim would have no bearing.
Of course Cincy excels in some aspects, just as St Louis excels In some aspects. However, in the hierarchy of metropolitan importance and influence, you are in denial if you realistically think Cincinnati is ahead of St. Louis. Equal? There’s a case to be made (although the poll here isn’t even close). But any way you slice it, St Louis is at minimum, equal to Cincinnati overall, but there is no scenario where St. Louis ranks below Cincinnati in overall importance and influence.
Just as there is no scenario where Cincinnati ranks below St. Louis in overall importance and influence. St. Louis posters are so very guilty of cherry picking their own data to make St. Louis rival cities much bigger.
You St. Louis posters have some weird obsession with Cincinnati. You say that St. Louis is badmouthed constantly on this forum and no one knows anything about the city so you have to really try hard to make its image better than what it really is, but you have no problem badmouthing other cities to try and make St. Louis look better. The fact that you even reference to a poll on CD as meaningful shows your desperation. You can find thread after thread comparing Cincinnati to St. Louis and in most of them, Cincinnati wins. So because it's a poll on CD, Cincinnati is the better city, right? I mean according to this post I quoted, that seems to be the St. Louis' boosters thought process.
This poster specifically mentions the same thing every time Cincinnati is brought up. I hate to tell you this, but St. Louis is far from ever blowing Cincinnati out of the water in anything. I don't go to St. Louis and think, oh gee, this is so much more successful than Cincinnati, with so much more to offer, it actually feels like the opposite at times. St. Louis is not some urban boom town, it is not some liberal bastion (as a gay male, I don't feel like I am in any more of a progressive area in St. Louis, far from it), and St. Louis tries hard to make its old image shine through today. The same very things that St. Louis posters call others out for, they do themselves. Motorman from Cincinnati is the only Cincy booster on here, meanwhile you have countless other St. Louis posters who will go blue in the face telling you how much better they are than other rival cities. Not that I agree with Motorman, and the way he goes about posting really makes me , but he's no different than the hundreds of other boosters in this section. The truth is, you see Cincinnati as a competitor, and you feel this need to put it down. I never understood the Cincinnati comparisons, especially coming from the same posters on that dead St. Louis development forum.
These cities are all comparable, and I think that bothers some. I am not one of those "I went to the city for three days and now know completely its culture, development, people and history". I think there are too many of these posters in this section.
Not to pile on Cincinnati, but this precinct voting map shows how politically conservative the Cincinnati area is compared to the other cities in this discussion. The blue area of Cincinnati is a lot smaller than just about any other major city. Zoom and compare the blue areas of St. Louis vs. Cincy and Cleveland vs. Cincy. In fact, the entire western half of Hamilton county is DEEP red, not just bright red. Contrast that to the other cities' core counties-- yes, there are red portions of each of those counties, but they are not so solidly dark-- yikes!
You pile on to Cincinnati because you see it as competitor, just like St. Louis posters have for a long time on this forum. Same goes for Kansas City, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, you name it, St. Louis posters will make sure St. Louis is seen as some shining star, but everyone else fails to be as great. It makes for a good read though.
Let's face it, St. Louis is in Missouri, enough said. Posters who refer to voting habits tend to equate that with social progressiveness. St. Louis is no way feels more socially liberal than Cincinnati, a city who continuously votes blue, for the record. I have heard the same "high school" questions in St. Louis. Keep grasping for something.
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A vast majority of Americans who could tell you that Waterloo was a battle in which Napoleon suffered his final defeat likely don't know the country in which the battle took place (United Kingdom of Netherlands then; Belgium today).
, but he's no different than the hundreds of other boosters in this section. The truth is, you see Cincinnati as a competitor, and you feel this need to put it down. I never understood the Cincinnati comparisons, especially coming from the same posters on that dead St. Louis development forum. 