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I think I responded to this thread years ago, but I'll quickly summarize my viewpoint: I think North Philly (at least up to Lehigh Ave) has a brighter future than the Southside of Chicago. Those who haven't been to Lower North Philly in a few years may not recognize certain portions of it: Francisville and Brewerytown have been completely transformed, Strawberry Mansion is slowly gaining developer interest, Norris Square is preparing to boom due to the fact that South Kensington is running out of developable lots, and I've seen new homes popping up as far north as 6th and York. The line of demarcation between "Greater Center City" and "North Philly" is still solidly Girard Avenue, but I could make a really good case for it being Cecil B. Moore Avenue nowadays. I also believe that, further down the line, Nicetown/Tioga may have potential.
To solidify its position, North Philly really needs another employment center. The growth of Temple University, along with its transformation from a commuter campus to a residential one, is what saved Lower North Philly from becoming as abandoned as the South Side. Now, it needs another huge development to help it grow further. If the North Station District Plan is able to be successfully implemented, then I can see a situation where all of North Philly below Lehigh Avenue is actively gentrifying, and developers gain interest in rowhomes/lots between Allegheny and Lehigh Avenues (with the exception of Fairhill for now).
Whats the real "North Philly"? I've seen posters including parts of Chicago that lay outside "Southside Chicago", if we're going to be technical, Roxborough, Germantown and Chestnut Hill are all "North" philadelphia which makes your entire comment asinine.
Germantown is Germantown, not North Philly, same for Roxborough and Chestnut Hill.. Those city sections collectively are called Northwest Philadelphia ( Unofficially)
Yup, and that is just one single incident. Throughout a summer weekend there are all kinds of shootings and chaos. South Side Chicago just has a far scarier reputation than North Philly. Most Chicagoans like me have never even been to the South Side, outside of maybe places like Hyde Park or to a Sox game. A sad, but honest reality.
I think I responded to this thread years ago, but I'll quickly summarize my viewpoint: I think North Philly (at least up to Lehigh Ave) has a brighter future than the Southside of Chicago. Those who haven't been to Lower North Philly in a few years may not recognize certain portions of it: Francisville and Brewerytown have been completely transformed, Strawberry Mansion is slowly gaining developer interest, Norris Square is preparing to boom due to the fact that South Kensington is running out of developable lots, and I've seen new homes popping up as far north as 6th and York. The line of demarcation between "Greater Center City" and "North Philly" is still solidly Girard Avenue, but I could make a really good case for it being Cecil B. Moore Avenue nowadays. I also believe that, further down the line, Nicetown/Tioga may have potential.
I wouldn't go that far in calling anything north of Girard Ave associated with Center City, and there's a reason for that just as I wouldn't call anything south of Washington Ave Center City but South Philly. I don't see all of North Philly being gentrified for a reason but I do see the area between Girard and Lehigh south to north, and the old Reading main line and 20th St as being a sort of a "Templetown" the way University City stretches from the Schuylkill River to 48th St. That fact alone is inevitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013
To solidify its position, North Philly really needs another employment center. The growth of Temple University, along with its transformation from a commuter campus to a residential one, is what saved Lower North Philly from becoming as abandoned as the South Side. Now, it needs another huge development to help it grow further. If the North Station District Plan is able to be successfully implemented, then I can see a situation where all of North Philly below Lehigh Avenue is actively gentrifying, and developers gain interest in rowhomes/lots between Allegheny and Lehigh Avenues (with the exception of Fairhill for now).
The problem with the South Side of Chicago is that it's a perpetual wasteland of poverty. There are some middle class pockets, but even then it's starting to get slim to none as certain middle-class neighborhoods like the South Shore are now laying siege to the dangerous gangs in Chicago. The poverty even extends to places like Harvey and Blue Island and even through state lines to infamous Gary IN. Philly does have Camden, but that city is starting to rebound, gradually but surely. Philadelphia is surrounded by some the most affluent suburbs in the nation and the blight seems to getting smaller. It used to start fro around Fairmount all the way into Erie, but now the sam blight is contracting to about York St. By 2030, Philly will look completely different than the Philly of the 2000s or even last decade. I'm not sure if I could say the same about Chicago in 2030.
The problem with the South Side of Chicago is that it's a perpetual wasteland of poverty. There are some middle class pockets, but even then it's starting to get slim to none as certain middle-class neighborhoods like the South Shore are now laying siege to the dangerous gangs in Chicago. The poverty even extends to places like Harvey and Blue Island and even through state lines to infamous Gary IN. Philly does have Camden, but that city is starting to rebound, gradually but surely. Philadelphia is surrounded by some the most affluent suburbs in the nation and the blight seems to getting smaller. It used to start fro around Fairmount all the way into Erie, but now the sam blight is contracting to about York St. By 2030, Philly will look completely different than the Philly of the 2000s or even last decade. I'm not sure if I could say the same about Chicago in 2030.
I think you meant "falling siege to" or "besieged by".
I take it the University of Chicago isn't strong enough or big enough (actually, I know it's not the latter) to spread its stability beyond Hyde Park?
I'd say that much of "Bronzeville" has stronger bones than Strawberry Mansion or any of a number of similar North Philly neighborhoods.
I take it the University of Chicago isn't strong enough or big enough (actually, I know it's not the latter) to spread its stability beyond Hyde Park?.
The University of Chicago has been kept in check by a long standing agreement with the city to not encroach south of 61st into Woodlawn but that is easing some. The university has made some investments in Woodlawn along 63rd and on Cottage Grove. They are investing in the Obama Library to help spur further revitalization of Woodlawn but lawsuits by park preservationists and hostile community organizations have turned the process into a disaster that has put the timeline years behind schedule.
Developers have been keen on Bronzeville for years and the redevelopment of the former Michael Resse Hospital site is still moving forward even during the pandemic. Bronzeville's proximity to the Loop and lakefront will eventually make it a highly desireable neighborhood. In terms of location and potential it is the south side's Lincoln Park. Dozens of homes there have sold for $700k which is an historic high. One problem with the area is they have allowed many heavily suburban retail complexes to be built that look absolutely ridiculous. The city's never-ending war on height has also kept new multi-family construction to low-rise 4-8 story buildings. The city should be replacing all of the high-rise public housing that was torn down with similar height and density. Bronzeville has the sprawling open fields to fill with tall, dense, urban uses. Unfortunately "New Urbanism" has won out for the areas rebuilding process and will continue especially with Maurice Cox as the city's planner who is an ardent supporter of the style.
The University of Chicago has been kept in check by a long standing agreement with the city to not encroach south of 61st into Woodlawn but that is easing some.
The university has made some investments in Woodlawn along 63rd and on Cottage Grove. They are investing in the Obama Library to help spur further revitalization of Woodlawn but lawsuits by park preservationists and hostile community organizations have turned the process into a disaster that has put the timeline years behind schedule.
Developers have been keen on Bronzeville for years and the redevelopment of the former Michael Resse Hospital site is still moving forward even during the pandemic. Bronzeville's proximity to the Loop and lakefront will eventually make it a highly desireable neighborhood. In terms of location and potential it is the south side's Lincoln Park. Dozens of homes there have sold for $700k which is an historic high. One problem with the area is they have allowed many heavily suburban retail complexes to be built that look absolutely ridiculous.
The city's never-ending war on height has also kept new multi-family construction to low-rise 4-8 story buildings. The city should be replacing all of the high-rise public housing that was torn down with similar height and density. Bronzeville has the sprawling open fields to fill with tall, dense, urban uses. Unfortunately "New Urbanism" has won out for the areas rebuilding process and will continue especially with Maurice Cox as the city's planner who is an ardent supporter of the style.
But that height is what most housing is in the area. The city certianly sees no good coming from affordable housing in the form of high-rises ever again.
Most cities restrict heights to preserve neighborhoods. Chicago is no different. Plenty of classic Chicago Gilded-age greystones and brick awesome housing there too that can bring high $$$ today.
This Crain's Chicago Business link will allow a limited free views of some examples of the affordable infill there.
The University of Chicago has been kept in check by a long standing agreement with the city to not encroach south of 61st into Woodlawn but that is easing some. The university has made some investments in Woodlawn along 63rd and on Cottage Grove. They are investing in the Obama Library to help spur further revitalization of Woodlawn but lawsuits by park preservationists and hostile community organizations have turned the process into a disaster that has put the timeline years behind schedule.
Developers have been keen on Bronzeville for years and the redevelopment of the former Michael Resse Hospital site is still moving forward even during the pandemic. Bronzeville's proximity to the Loop and lakefront will eventually make it a highly desireable neighborhood. In terms of location and potential it is the south side's Lincoln Park. Dozens of homes there have sold for $700k which is an historic high. One problem with the area is they have allowed many heavily suburban retail complexes to be built that look absolutely ridiculous. The city's never-ending war on height has also kept new multi-family construction to low-rise 4-8 story buildings. The city should be replacing all of the high-rise public housing that was torn down with similar height and density. Bronzeville has the sprawling open fields to fill with tall, dense, urban uses. Unfortunately "New Urbanism" has won out for the areas rebuilding process and will continue especially with Maurice Cox as the city's planner who is an ardent supporter of the style.
Having seen both Martin Luther King Parkway in Bronzeville and the Grand Concourse in the Bronx, I'm not so sure that a boulevard lined with 8-story-high apartment buildings would be a setback.
Those public housing towers were the very "chunks of Radiant Garden City" Jane Jacobs so sagely criticized, and I certainly wouldn't want them brought back in that form.
I'm sure that's not what you wish either: I suspect you have in mind something more like Third Avenue on Manhattan's East Side, where 15- to 25-story apartment buildings with ground level retail define the streetscape.
Provided they have setbacks like the pre-1970 New York apartment towers did, this might not be all that bad, but frankly, the Grand Concourse looks plenty urban, and I'm not convinced that adopting the New Urbanist stance along Bronzeville's thoroughfares so that they ended up resembling that street would be all that bad. (Just make sure there's some retail on the street floor where appropriate and the zoning allows.)
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