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Being New South and Upper South aren't mutually exclusive at all. Birmingham was actually one of the first New South cities.
'New South' doesn't even refer to a region. It was a term meant to refer to the Post-Bellum South that industrialized, received Northern investment and generally reinvented itself.
'New South' doesn't even refer to a region. It was a term meant to refer to the Post-Bellum South that industrialized, received Northern investment and generally reinvented itself.
Right. It just so happens that Atlanta and Birmingham were the prototype New South cities, but development soon came to other parts of the South.
Charlotte literally sits on the SC border, yet it can't be considered a "gateway to the deep south"? You know little to nothing of Charlotte's history, that much is obvious.
Yes indeed too many hard facts in Charlotte's case preclude it being a Deep South city definitely and gateway generally. At no point in American history has Charlotte been considered a Deep South city even during the antebellum era when Eastern NC (not Charlotte) was on the periphery. "It's not in the Deep South, but some of it's suburbs are...."! Not getting full credit. "Eastern NC is Deep South by academics during the antebellum era?!....Charlotte isn't Eastern NC not getting credit for that either. "Most of it's suburbs are in NC even though a big suburb is in SC!"....Not getting full credit here either. With your case for Charlotte as a Deep South gateway the geographical fact that by modern academic standards of geography it falls outside of the region does not at all support your perspective. I get what you're saying, I do. In fact if data like modern understanding of these areas was not an issue I would be inclined to agree because Charlotte does border both NC/SC, but the facts matter here. Unless there becomes a new academic standard the Deep South in it's modern understanding as was listed earlier does not include Charlotte. As a gateway it functions like a gateway to the Upland South geographically(the facts work here) and culturally(the facts work here as well)
Yes indeed too many hard facts in Charlotte's case preclude it being a Deep South city definitely and gateway generally. At no point in American history has Charlotte been considered a Deep South city even during the antebellum era when Eastern NC (not Charlotte) was on the periphery. "It's not in the Deep South, but some of it's suburbs are...."! Not getting full credit. "Eastern NC is Deep South by academics during the antebellum era?!....Charlotte isn't Eastern NC not getting credit for that either. "Most of it's suburbs are in NC even though a big suburb is in SC!"....Not getting full credit here either. With your case for Charlotte as a Deep South gateway the geographical fact that by modern academic standards of geography it falls outside of the region does not at all support your perspective. I get what you're saying, I do. In fact if data like modern understanding of these areas was not an issue I would be inclined to agree because Charlotte does border both NC/SC, but the facts matter here. Unless there becomes a new academic standard the Deep South in it's modern understanding as was listed earlier does not include Charlotte. As a gateway it functions like a gateway to the Upland South geographically(the facts work here) and culturally(the facts work here as well)
Ok first of all, I'm not arguing that Charlotte is a Deep South city so let's be clear about that. However, Charlotte has always functioned as a gateway to the Deep South but you wouldn't know that if you didn't know anything about Charlotte historically and it's apparent you don't know much about how Charlotte functions today.
First of all, unlike Birmingham (which was founded after the Civil War), Charlotte had a plantation economy:
Mecklenburg never had plantations on the scale of the rich lands of the low-country counties, but it was very much a part of the plantation economy. Eventually Mecklenburg had thirty plantations each employing twenty-five or more slaves, with dozens of smaller farms, most growing some cotton. The finest estates were on the rich bottom lands along the Catawba River and the creeks that fed into it. Except when there were legal matters to resolve, the plantations had little occasion to do business with Charlotte, according to Davidson College historian Dr. Chalmers Davidson, an expert on the era. Cotton was usually shipped overland to Cheraw, South Carolina, head of navigation on the Yadkin/Pee Dee river system. If it had relied only on the plantation economy, Charlotte might well have remained the sleepy courthouse village that George Washington saw.
More on the role of cotton in antebellum Charlotte:
Up to the year 1852, the cotton raised in the vicinity of Charlotte. . .not consumed immediately through the aid of the old fashioned loom, wheel and cards was forced to seek a market. . .by being hauled to Fayetteville, Camden, Cheraw, or Charleston by wagons. . . When the completion of the Charlotte and Columbia Railroad took place in 1852, for the first time in the history of Charlotte she had an outlet -- a highway to the sea. Three years later and the iron chain which connects us with Norfolk, Virginia, was finished, and a stimulus given to the cotton trade which no other advantage could have conferred. Situated at the terminus of both roads, competition between them at once enabled the cotton dealer here to pay the very highest price for the staple.
Secondly, when railroads came to Charlotte, the initial connections were to Columbia and Charleston well before it was connected to the rest of NC and even to this day, the port of Charleston is the one primarily used by Charlotte for imports and exports.
Countless numbers of bales have been brought to Charlotte from the direction of Chester and Rock Hill, in South Carolina, over the Charlotte, Columbia, and Augusta Railroad (originally the Charlotte and South Carolina), while the North Carolina Railroad gives the people all along its line, from Charlotte to Lexington, however paradoxical it may seem, a market in Charlotte for their cotton.
More than any other event, the arrival of the railroad in 1852 set Charlotte on its way to being the largest city in the Carolinas. When the Charlotte and South Carolina completed its track up from Columbia in that year, it was one of the first railways in the western half of North Carolina. Suddenly Charlotte had the advantage over the half-dozen similar sized villages in the region.
In 1854 the State of North Carolina began work on a state-owned railroad from Raleigh and Goldsboro to Charlotte, in part to connect the eastern cities with the railroad to Columbia. This North Carolina Railroad, passing through Greensboro and Salisbury, made Charlotte an important railroad junction. It also made the city for the first time truly a part of North Carolina, for it was finally as easy to go east to Raleigh as it had been to go south down the river valleys to Columbia and Charleston, South Carolina.
Thirdly, consider Charlotte's role in the Civil War (remember, Birmingham didn't even exist then) as home to the Confederate Naval Yard.
Most important, and least likely for this landlocked city, Charlotte was the home of the Confederacy's Naval Yard. 34 In 1862 it appeared that the existing naval yard at Norfolk Virginia, might be lost to Union forces. All machinery and stores were packed up and sent inland to Charlotte for the duration of the war. Charlotte was chosen because of its already established iron works and because of the railroad network that connected it to seaports.
Logistically, Charlotte links both Carolinas and is a cultural convergence point for the upland south and the coastal plain. It has always attracted ambitious Carolinians and many of Charlotte's most notable business and civic leaders have been native South Carolinians. Consider Charlotte's transition to a New South city and the rallying cry to "bring the mills to the cotton":
D. A. Tompkins proved the paper right when he came to town in 1882. A relative of John C. Calhoun, Tompkins was a native of Edgehill, South Carolina, and a prototypical New South leader who went North to earn a civil engineering degree at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. He returned south to Charlotte in charge of selling Westinghouse steam engines and machinery to the new mills and industry of the region. In 1883 he struck off on his own and founded the D. A. Tompkins Company which specialized in setting up cotton mills...
Even Atlanta, which considered itself the center of the New South, recognized Tompkins' pre-eminence. Atlanta Constitution editor Clark Howell stated flatly that Tompkins "did more for the industrial south than any other man." Today historians consider Tompkins one of the most important of the New South leaders.
Other notable South Carolina natives that significantly shaped the trajectory of Charlotte are New South industrialist Edward Dilworth Latta (after whom the city's first suburb is named), the city's first Black mayor and Clemson University's first Black student Harvey Gant, and the man who almost single-handedly catapulted Charlotte onto the national stage as a premiere banking hub, Hugh McColl. SC banks were among the first acquired by Charlotte-based banks when the laws were changed to allow for banking operations across state lines.
As the defacto capital of the Carolinas, Charlotte has tons of businesses and institutions that have operations in both states. Charlotte-based media covers events in both states. The Carolina Panthers represents both states (the team's first season was played in SC and the field at BOA Stadium where it plays is composed of soil trucked in from every single county in the Carolinas). TWC Arena, home of the Hornets, has a huge frosted glass wall depicting both Carolinas and memorabilia from college basketball teams in both Carolinas is displayed throughout the arena. Carolinas Healthcare System (now called Atrium Health) is a huge healthcare system covering both states. You'll find venues and businesses scattered throughout Charlotte that display both the NC and SC flag; you'll probably find more SC flags in Charlotte than in most SC towns. Cahrlotte's airport is the airport of choice for many, if not most, SC residents and businesses. And at this time of year, Charlotteans have already started flooding the Myrtle Beach and Charleston beaches as they do every year.
I'll stop there as I believe I've sufficiently proved my point with concrete evidence/examples both historically and present-day. Whether you want to argue economically or culturally, Charlotte is absolutely a gateway to the Deep South and only those who have little to no knowledge of Charlotte historically or today would even attempt to argue otherwise. So let's put this to rest.
Ok first of all, I'm not arguing that Charlotte is a Deep South city so let's be clear about that. However, Charlotte has always functioned as a gateway to the Deep South but you wouldn't know that if you didn't know anything about Charlotte historically and it's apparent you don't know much about how Charlotte functions today.
First of all, unlike Birmingham (which was founded after the Civil War), Charlotte had a plantation economy:
Mecklenburg never had plantations on the scale of the rich lands of the low-country counties, but it was very much a part of the plantation economy. Eventually Mecklenburg had thirty plantations each employing twenty-five or more slaves, with dozens of smaller farms, most growing some cotton. The finest estates were on the rich bottom lands along the Catawba River and the creeks that fed into it. Except when there were legal matters to resolve, the plantations had little occasion to do business with Charlotte, according to Davidson College historian Dr. Chalmers Davidson, an expert on the era. Cotton was usually shipped overland to Cheraw, South Carolina, head of navigation on the Yadkin/Pee Dee river system. If it had relied only on the plantation economy, Charlotte might well have remained the sleepy courthouse village that George Washington saw.
More on the role of cotton in antebellum Charlotte:
Up to the year 1852, the cotton raised in the vicinity of Charlotte. . .not consumed immediately through the aid of the old fashioned loom, wheel and cards was forced to seek a market. . .by being hauled to Fayetteville, Camden, Cheraw, or Charleston by wagons. . . When the completion of the Charlotte and Columbia Railroad took place in 1852, for the first time in the history of Charlotte she had an outlet -- a highway to the sea. Three years later and the iron chain which connects us with Norfolk, Virginia, was finished, and a stimulus given to the cotton trade which no other advantage could have conferred. Situated at the terminus of both roads, competition between them at once enabled the cotton dealer here to pay the very highest price for the staple.
Secondly, when railroads came to Charlotte, the initial connections were to Columbia and Charleston well before it was connected to the rest of NC and even to this day, the port of Charleston is the one primarily used by Charlotte for imports and exports.
Countless numbers of bales have been brought to Charlotte from the direction of Chester and Rock Hill, in South Carolina, over the Charlotte, Columbia, and Augusta Railroad (originally the Charlotte and South Carolina), while the North Carolina Railroad gives the people all along its line, from Charlotte to Lexington, however paradoxical it may seem, a market in Charlotte for their cotton.
More than any other event, the arrival of the railroad in 1852 set Charlotte on its way to being the largest city in the Carolinas. When the Charlotte and South Carolina completed its track up from Columbia in that year, it was one of the first railways in the western half of North Carolina. Suddenly Charlotte had the advantage over the half-dozen similar sized villages in the region.
In 1854 the State of North Carolina began work on a state-owned railroad from Raleigh and Goldsboro to Charlotte, in part to connect the eastern cities with the railroad to Columbia. This North Carolina Railroad, passing through Greensboro and Salisbury, made Charlotte an important railroad junction. It also made the city for the first time truly a part of North Carolina, for it was finally as easy to go east to Raleigh as it had been to go south down the river valleys to Columbia and Charleston, South Carolina.
Thirdly, consider Charlotte's role in the Civil War (remember, Birmingham didn't even exist then) as home to the Confederate Naval Yard.
Most important, and least likely for this landlocked city, Charlotte was the home of the Confederacy's Naval Yard. 34 In 1862 it appeared that the existing naval yard at Norfolk Virginia, might be lost to Union forces. All machinery and stores were packed up and sent inland to Charlotte for the duration of the war. Charlotte was chosen because of its already established iron works and because of the railroad network that connected it to seaports.
Logistically, Charlotte links both Carolinas and is a cultural convergence point for the upland south and the coastal plain. It has always attracted ambitious Carolinians and many of Charlotte's most notable business and civic leaders have been native South Carolinians. Consider Charlotte's transition to a New South city and the rallying cry to "bring the mills to the cotton":
D. A. Tompkins proved the paper right when he came to town in 1882. A relative of John C. Calhoun, Tompkins was a native of Edgehill, South Carolina, and a prototypical New South leader who went North to earn a civil engineering degree at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. He returned south to Charlotte in charge of selling Westinghouse steam engines and machinery to the new mills and industry of the region. In 1883 he struck off on his own and founded the D. A. Tompkins Company which specialized in setting up cotton mills...
Even Atlanta, which considered itself the center of the New South, recognized Tompkins' pre-eminence. Atlanta Constitution editor Clark Howell stated flatly that Tompkins "did more for the industrial south than any other man." Today historians consider Tompkins one of the most important of the New South leaders.
Other notable South Carolina natives that significantly shaped the trajectory of Charlotte are New South industrialist Edward Dilworth Latta (after whom the city's first suburb is named), the city's first Black mayor and Clemson University's first Black student Harvey Gant, and the man who almost single-handedly catapulted Charlotte onto the national stage as a premiere banking hub, Hugh McColl. SC banks were among the first acquired by Charlotte-based banks when the laws were changed to allow for banking operations across state lines.
As the defacto capital of the Carolinas, Charlotte has tons of businesses and institutions that have operations in both states. Charlotte-based media covers events in both states. The Carolina Panthers represents both states (the team's first season was played in SC and the field at BOA Stadium where it plays is composed of soil trucked in from every single county in the Carolinas). TWC Arena, home of the Hornets, has a huge frosted glass wall depicting both Carolinas and memorabilia from college basketball teams in both Carolinas is displayed throughout the arena. Carolinas Healthcare System (now called Atrium Health) is a huge healthcare system covering both states. You'll find venues and businesses scattered throughout Charlotte that display both the NC and SC flag; you'll probably find more SC flags in Charlotte than in most SC towns. Cahrlotte's airport is the airport of choice for many, if not most, SC residents and businesses. And at this time of year, Charlotteans have already started flooding the Myrtle Beach and Charleston beaches as they do every year.
I'll stop there as I believe I've sufficiently proved my point with concrete evidence/examples both historically and present-day. Whether you want to argue economically or culturally, Charlotte is absolutely a gateway to the Deep South and only those who have little to no knowledge of Charlotte historically or today would even attempt to argue otherwise. So let's put this to rest.
I get your point about Charlotte's history. Birmingham was birthed as a New South city and is younger than Charlotte. Unfortunately for your argument it confirms Charlotte's identity as an Old South(see definition: as southern states that were part of original 13 colonies and had plantation based economies) city and economy rather than a Deep South one. They are similar in some ways and very dissimilar in others and conflating the two is a fairly common mistake. Again your point would be valid if the Carolinas were a singular state (one with a much stronger South Carolina influence) but the fact remains that the N.C./S.C. border exists geographically and culturally and that can't be overlooked. If Charlotte were more like Charleston or Columbia culturally that would bolster your argument culturally speaking as a Deep South gateway but that is not supported by the facts. They are culturally very different cities and the Deep South for the S.C. cities/ Upland South for N.C. influence is a part of that. By your logic the Deep South's borders would never end because the areas just across the line could basically be lumped in too because they are close to the true area, hence North Carolina or Tennessee would be included in the Deep South because they borders a Deep South states obviously they are not. Pittsburgh has many businesses, institutions, its media market etc. that overlaps into West Virginia...a southern state like Charlotte does in South Carolina. Do we(generally speaking) call Pittsburgh southern or even a gateway to the south because part of it's metro which is huge overlaps into the south? Obviously not there are established criteria (geography, culture) that come into play when it's time to split hairs. That's how modern geographical understanding works and arbitrarily changing it is another discussion entirely.
I get your point about Charlotte's history. Birmingham was birthed as a New South city and is younger than Charlotte. Unfortunately for your argument it confirms Charlotte's identity as an Old South(see definition: as southern states that were part of original 13 colonies and had plantation based economies) city and economy rather than a Deep South one.
Sir, you absolutely missed the part where I stated that I wasn't arguing that Charlotte is a Deep South city because it really isn't. However, Charlotte has absolutely functioned as a gateway city to the Deep South and I have extensively demonstrated that. You're simply trying to muddle the waters by mentioning the Old South because I argued my point successfully.
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They are similar in some ways and very dissimilar in others and conflating the two is a fairly common mistake.
LOL, and you're here to set me straight right? All the while conveniently ignoring the fact that I never argued that Charlotte was a Deep South city, but that it has functioned as a gateway to the Deep South. I didn't even mention anything about the Old South so there's no conflation on my part whatsoever.
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Again your point would be valid if the Carolinas were a singular state (one with a much stronger South Carolina influence) but the fact remains that the N.C./S.C. border exists geographically and culturally and that can't be overlooked.
This makes no sense whatsoever; even you yourself acknowledge this when you acknowledged the inclusion of parts of FL and TX (and conceded part of NC) in the Deep South. Cultural/geographic/physiographical regions do not correspond to state borders. And to say that a state line is cultural in nature is one of the most asinine things I've ever heard. You sound more and more like this OT dude with each post.
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If Charlotte were more like Charleston or Columbia culturally that would bolster your argument culturally speaking as a Deep South gateway but that is not supported by the facts.
No it wouldn't becsuse Columbia and Charleston aren't gateways to the Deep South; they are actually Deep South cities. You keep shooting yourself in the foot and seem to be oblivious to it.
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They are culturally very different cities and the Deep South for the S.C. cities/ Upland South for N.C. influence is a part of that. By your logic the Deep South's borders would never end because the areas just across the line could basically be lumped in too because they are close to the true area, hence North Carolina or Tennessee would be included in the Deep South because they borders a Deep South states obviously they are not.
Western TN and eastern NC are within the Deep South as they are coastal plain regions that relied heavily on slave-based agrarianism. That's not true of the Piedmont and Appalachian parts of those states.
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Pittsburgh has many businesses, institutions, its media market etc. that overlaps into West Virginia...a southern state like Charlotte does in South Carolina. Do we(generally speaking) call Pittsburgh southern because part of it's metro which is huge overlaps into the south? Obviously not there are established criteria (geography, culture) that come into play when it's time to split hairs. That's how modern geographical understanding works and arbitrarily changing it is another discussion entirely.
That's not an apples to apples comparison because we're talking about subregions here. Pittsburgh and all of WV are Appalachia. Charlotte is a Piedmont city that functions as a gateway to the Deep South (coastal plain region), mostly towards SC but also within its own state going east towards the coast.
And at this point, I'm almost certain you and OT are the same person. Your writing styles, deflection methods, and misplaced arguments are practically identical, and like OT, you never concede you were mistaken about anything even when you've been extensively schooled on an issue but only resort to "I get what you're saying" (except you don't appear to). None of the actual Birmingham posters even go to the lengths you do to make Birmingham appear as a highly unique city while getting all sorts of things wrong about other cities in the process. I see you.
I know that you said that in just, but Baltimore should actually be in the poll.
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