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Considering that both Little Italy and the West Side Market are both adjacent to their respective Red Line stations and considering its usually about 14-16 minutes to Little Italy and 3-4 mins to Ohio City from Tower City (total travel time 18-21 mins with a 1-min layover in Tower City), either you are an extremely slow walker or there was some breakdown in service on the trains the time you traveled, which run at least every 15 minutes (base) every 10 minutes or less (rush hour).
No way it takes an hour from Little Italy to the West Side Market via the Red Line, unless you're making stuff up... which I wouldn't put past you given your extreme, and very weird, paranoia re Cleveland.
I would believe this ridiculous claim if he took the red line to tower city and then the health line to Little Italy. But that ride on the Red line is 30 minutes. Maybe 35 if things are slow for whatever reason. It's definitely not 1 hour.
No question. I attribute this to a couple factors:
1. Pittsburgh has a much stronger downtown employment base than Cleveland... Downtown Cleveland was decimated by corporate closures and relocation(s) stretching from the late 1970s well into the 2000s, when Eaton Corp relocated its large HQ employment center from downtown to Highland Hills...
2. Typography. Downtown Pittsburgh, aka the Golden Triangle, is small, tight (dominated by narrow streets) and surrounded by physical barriers on all 3 sides of its triangle: 2 wide rivers on the triangle's sides and steep hills along its base (to the east). It makes driving to and around downtown foreboding, esp during rush hour. Also many Pittsburgh neighborhoods and suburbs are also along steep hills and are separated by these and/or one of the rivers.
Downtown Cleveland, by contrast, is dominated by wide, car-friendly avenues with only a few narrow streets in between (ie. E. 6th, ("Short") Vincent, E. 12th and 13th, Bolivar and a few others). And while the Cuyahoga River and valley (the Flats) are something of a barrier to the West, the larger East Side is not faced with these barriers. Instead drivers may enter along one of several wide avenues... Its about to get even easier once the angled, higher-speed Opportunity Corridor comes on line in a few years.
In accord with this accessibility, downtown Cleveland has tons (too much) cheap, accessible parking, often in the form of maddening surface lots -- although, happily, these lots are steadily being developed into high density apartments and office buildings.
While there has been a smaller but steady re-migration of businesses back into downtown, its doubtful that downtown will match its glory days up through the late 1970s as a headquarters, office worker destination. As you know, many old office buildings abandoned by corporations, law firms and the like have been/are being, re-purposed into apartments and condos. Downtown Pittsburgh hasn't suffered corporate and job losses anywhere near Cleveland's, so the need neighborhood or suburb-to-downtown commuting just doesn't exist in Cleveland these days as it still does for Pittsburgh. And spokes-to-hub rush hour commuting is the bread 'n butter for almost all American big-city transit networks.
Cleveland, on the other hand, has developed a considerably stronger downtown residential/resident(s) presence than Pittsburgh, which tends to completely empty out by 7p on weekdays much as Cleveland's downtown did up through the 1990s until the mass movement for downtown residents began in full force and continues to this day.
Oh that is cool if Cleveland downtown is developing former parking lots, will help a lot not only with vibrancy but tax revenue also. I didn't know they were hit harder than Pgh in that regard of corporations heading out. I haven't been there in quite awhile. I would also have thought Pgh was hit pretty hard with comapnies like Alcoa HQ going to NYC, and Heinz merging with Kraft moving HQ to Chicago, and US Steels troubles. but somehow DT Pgh has held its own, and like you said the compactness probably has something to do with it.
Residentially, there are so many projects in DT Pgh its tough to keep track, mainly old bldg conversions but some new bldgs too. the population of the golden triangle has been going up at a pretty sharp rate. Lots of these are apparently pet friendly, there are so many more dogs walking around DT than before, its a whole different feel!
and with that always comes more restaurants and nightlife spots, so its very cool to see.
. It makes driving to and around downtown foreboding, esp during rush hour. Also many Pittsburgh neighborhoods and suburbs are also along steep hills and are separated by these and/or one of the rivers.
Its a good point, I didn't realize this so much being familiar with it, but after people from DC and Philly say the same thing, made me realize how confusing Pittsburgh's road system and topography is to anyone not familiar. I mean San Francisco is very hilly too but it follows more of a grid than Pittsburgh does, so I think its much easier for outsiders. Its probably what inspired the old Pittsburgh saying when someone asks directions to another area of the city, reply is: "Oh, you can't get there from here"
I would believe this ridiculous claim if he took the red line to tower city and then the health line to Little Italy. But that ride on the Red line is 30 minutes. Maybe 35 if things are slow for whatever reason. It's definitely not 1 hour.
Yeah, that's complete nonsense. Seriously, if I wanted to, I could run from Little Italy to the WSM in an hour (accounting for stop lights slowing me down). Even 30 minutes on the Red Line (even accounting for stops and the transfer) is on the high end. In a car, its 20-25 minutes tops even in high traffic times.
Connected or not, the one thing you can't say about Cleveland is that it takes "an hour" to get from any point within the city. It's a city that has an interstate system built for more like a metro of 4 million, a public transportation system built for a city of a million and its main streets are very car oriented on top of that... and the city only is 75 square miles. Again, some may look at this as a negative but I see it as a positive, Cleveland literally has the least traffic congestion of any city I have been too. Even, locally, the traffic in Akron (especially) and Canton is arguably worse than it is in Cleveland.
So even if the 12-15 walkable nodes here aren't as concentrated as the 3-4 in say Louisville, getting to them isn't some headache like you make it seem (and they actually are more connected than what is generally perceived despite some of the things I previously brought up).
I didn't realize this dude had such an ax to grind with Cleveland. I still actually agree with him in a way, but yeah, hes taking this way over the deep end.
Still, I may actually take a trip down to Louisville because of this. I never had an urge since the people I know (who btw all like the city) only went down there to get ripped at the Kentucky Derby and bet money on a "sport" they know nothing about. No knock on Louisville, but I joke with them about going down there for the Derby by saying. "If I want to get hammered and bet on horses, I'll go to Thistledown or Northfield Park." I'll even pack a Louisville Slugger in my car if I do win and somebody tries to Jack me in the parking lot, lol.
But I'm kind of intrigued about a city that just never showed up on my radar before
Last edited by ClevelandBrown; 03-30-2019 at 11:50 PM..
Yeah, that's complete nonsense. Seriously, if I wanted to, I could run from Little Italy to the WSM in an hour (accounting for stop lights slowing me down). Even 30 minutes on the Red Line (even accounting for stops and the transfer) is on the high end. In a car, its 20-25 minutes tops even in high traffic times.
Connected or not, the one thing you can't say about Cleveland is that it takes "an hour" to get from any point within the city. It's a city that has an interstate system built for more like a metro of 4 million, a public transportation system built for a city of a million and its main streets are very car oriented on top of that... and the city only is 75 square miles. Again, some may look at this as a negative but I see it as a positive, Cleveland literally has the least traffic congestion of any city I have been too. Even, locally, the traffic in Akron (especially) and Canton is arguably worse than it is in Cleveland.
So even if the 12-15 walkable nodes here aren't as concentrated as the 3-4 in say Louisville, getting to them isn't some headache like you make it seem (and they actually are more connected than what is generally perceived despite some of the things I previously brought up).
I didn't realize this dude had such an ax to grind with Cleveland. I still actually agree with him in a way, but yeah, hes taking this way over the deep end.
Still, I may actually take a trip down to Louisville because of this. I never had an urge since the people I know (who btw all like the city) only went down there to get ripped at the Kentucky Derby and bet money on a "sport" they know nothing about. No knock on Louisville, but I joke with them about going down there for the Derby by saying. "If I want to get hammered and bet on horses, I'll go to Thistledown or Northfield Park." I'll even pack a Louisville Slugger in my car if I do win and somebody tries to Jack me in the parking lot, lol.
But I'm kind of intrigued about a city that just never showed up on my radar before
Louisville is actually a nice place, it's just that Peter makes it very easy to hate online. But anyone used to Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Detroit will find it quite small and lacking in culture to some degree.
Oh that is cool if Cleveland downtown is developing former parking lots, will help a lot not only with vibrancy but tax revenue also. I didn't know they were hit harder than Pgh in that regard of corporations heading out. I haven't been there in quite awhile. I would also have thought Pgh was hit pretty hard with comapnies like Alcoa HQ going to NYC, and Heinz merging with Kraft moving HQ to Chicago, and US Steels troubles. but somehow DT Pgh has held its own, and like you said the compactness probably has something to do with it.
Residentially, there are so many projects in DT Pgh its tough to keep track, mainly old bldg conversions but some new bldgs too. the population of the golden triangle has been going up at a pretty sharp rate. Lots of these are apparently pet friendly, there are so many more dogs walking around DT than before, its a whole different feel!
and with that always comes more restaurants and nightlife spots, so its very cool to see.
When I was a kid, the Cleveland chamber of commerce always boasted that Cleveland was home to more corporate headquarters than all but NYC and Chicago... and there was evidence to back that up. Since the early part of the 20th Century Cleveland's slogan was that it was the "Best Location in the Nation" noting that the city was within 500 miles of something like 80 to 90% of the nation's population and that it was a major hub for rail shipping for that reason... But by the mid-80s huge corporations like Standard Oil of Ohio (you know the base Std Oil set up by homeboy John D. Rockefeller) and Republic Steel, White Motors and others either were merged out of the City or simply died....
Imagine if Pittsburgh lost Westinghouse and US Steel, that's the equivalent of the losses Cleveland suffered (and Standard Oil was bigger, revenue-wise, than both of those companies when it departed)... It didn't happen there, luckily, but rival Cleveland kicked right in the corporate solar plexus. It's amazing for me having lived through the late heyday and steep decline of Cleveland that the city has come back as far as it has in such a relatively short period of time. It was the national joke with both the Cuyahoga River and Mayor Ralph Perk's hair catching fire (the latter when Perk was performing a welding exhibition), and being the first major city to default on a loan (in 1978 or 79) since Detroit did so during the Great Depression. Far from coming all the way back -- there are still major problems as well as coping with the steepest population loss aside from Detroit -- but the City is on something of a roll which was highlighted to the nation with (the more superficial) Cavaliers' championship and its (more substantial) downtown growth and quality handling of the 2016 Republican convention where media from across the world got an eye-opener as to the town's many qualities.
I’m sorry but the Waterfront line is pretty useless.
That's not true.
For visitors staying (especially in Tower City hotels or those hotels nearby in the Gateway district) near Tower City's rail transit hub, it's a great way to get to the Flats East Bank or lakefront attractions (Rock Hall, Great Lakes Science Center, U.S.S. Cod, Steamship Mather and the International Women's Air & Space Museum). Ditto for those staying in airport hotels providing free shuttle service to the airport or the West 150th Puritas Red Line station or hotels with easy access to the Red Line in University Circle or Little Italy. This is especially true for guests of the Cleveland Hostel in Ohio City's Market District; the hostel is a block from the West 25th St. line.
With a day pass, any tourist should consider its use, especially as walking uphill from the FEB or the Rock Hall can be physically taxing for some or unpleasant in bad weather. Visitors also should check out the C-line free bus trolley which provides access to the FEB (perhaps only on a seasonal basis; check with RTA) and has later hours (until 11 p.m. versus around 7 p.m. for the Waterfront Line; however, the C-line only begins operations at 7 p.m. on weekdays, taking over for the B- and E-lines which operate during the day on weekdays) than the Waterfront Line.
Day passes are $5.50, $2.75 for seniors and some children, and pre-K children ride for free.
Perhaps one of the best uses of the Waterfront Line for tourists would be to use it to get between the Rock Hall and FEB for lunch (assuming Rock Hall re-entry is allowed) given the relative superiority of the FEB restaurants to those in the area of the Rock Hall.
The difficulty of walking to the Flats East Bank or the Lakeshore attractions is the relative elevation of downtown versus the Cuyahoga River valley (the Flats in the downtown area) and lakeshore attractions, largely built on landfill beneath the natural Lake Erie bluff. Admittedly, these uphill elevations aren't difficult for healthy adults, especially in cooler weather and otherwise good weather.
The Waterfront Line also provides easy access to First Energy Stadium, perhaps more useful in bad weather as the walk there is fun and easy. It's also more useful for those traveling downtown to the Tower City rail hub on other rail rapid lines as transfer passengers already are in the rail hub and don't have to walk there; Blue and Green line riders don't even have to transfer to the WFL as those lines continue on the WFL tracks.
Louisville is actually a nice place, it's just that Peter makes it very easy to hate online. But anyone used to Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Detroit will find it quite small and lacking in culture to some degree.
Well I certainly won't hate on a whole city just because of one, ah, person (I can't say what I'd like to say). That's just plain silly. Whatever Peter's problem is his alone and we disgrace ourselves if we sink to his level... I'm actually intrigued by Louisville and would like to visit. It's got many cultural assets, but I doubt its on the level of a Cleveland or Cincinnati.
That's not true. If you're staying near Tower City's rail transit hub, it's a great way to get to the Flats East Bank or lakefront attractions (Rock Hall, Great Lakes Science Center, U.S.S. Cod, Steamship Mather and the International Women's Air & Space Museum). With a day pass, any tourist should consider its use, especially as walking uphill from the FEB or the Rock Hall can be physically taxing for some or unpleasant in bad weather. Visitors also should check out the C-line free bus trolley which provides access to the FEB (perhaps only on a seasonal basis; check with RTA) and has later hours (until 11 p.m. versus around 7 p.m. for the Waterfront Line; however, the C-line only begins operations at 7 p.m. on weekdays, taking over for the B- and E-lines which operate during the day on weekdays) than the Waterfront Line.
Perhaps one of the best uses of the Waterfront Line for tourists is to use it to get between the Rock Hall and FEB for lunch (assuming re-entry is allowed) given the relative superiority of the FEB restaurants to those in the area of the Rock Hall.
The difficulty of walking to the Flats East Bank or the Lakeshore attractions is the relative elevation of downtown versus the Cuyahoga River valley (the Flats in the downtown area) and lakeshore attractions, largely built on landfill beneath the natural Lake Erie bluff.
The Waterfront Line also provides easy access to First Energy Stadium, perhaps more useful in bad weather as the walk there is fun and easy. It's also more useful for those traveling downtown to the Tower City rail hub on other rail rapid lines as transfer passengers already are in the rail hub and don't have to walk there; Blue and Green line riders don't even have to transfer to the WFL as those lines continue on the WFL tracks.
I guess the Waterfront Line isn't useless, but it could have been much much more useful if it were planned properly.
Well I certainly won't hate on a whole city just because of one, ah, person (I can't say what I'd like to say). That's just plain silly. Whatever Peter's problem is his alone and we disgrace ourselves if we sink to his level... I'm actually intrigued by Louisville and would like to visit. It's got many cultural assets, but to put it on the level of, and compare it favorably to, Cleveland is ridiculous because its a much smaller city and a less built out or cultural place.
You definitely should visit. My gf and I had a great time going for the early Kentucky Derby days (Thursday and Friday). Definitely would go back some day.
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