Grouping Deep South Cities (bigger, pros, economy, live)
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How closely people seem to cling to the Southern title seems to depend solely on whether or not you have black skin. Black posters seem to cling much harder to it being a strictly southern thing and less open to the idea that a place can be southern but something else as well. I am not black so I dont understand that perspective, but I also dont want to minimize it.
Its just a different approach, not wrong, but different. What that underscores to me is that we simply need to be understanding and willing to listen to how someone from a different race might see a place different culturally.
Here's how I see it.
There are four major regions in the U.S.: South, Northeast, Midwest, West. Since the Northeast and Midwest together constitute the North, it could be condensed into three regions but most people make a distinction between them.
Now you can break all of these up into various sorts of subregions, but for the sake of discussion here, I'll just use the ones based on major geographic features which tend to straddle the major regional borders to some degree. The Great Plains is obviously an example, with others being Great Lakes, mid-Atlantic, Desert Southwest, Appalachia, etc. Seeing as though the South is a huge region, it contains at least a portion of several subregions like the Great Plains, mid-Atlantic, Appalachia, etc. The Great Plains itself is located in the Midwest, West, and South so there's no contradiction with cities being included in a both a major region and subregion; if anything, it's expected. That said, I don't anyone, Black or otherwise, is denying DFW's identity as a Plains metro when insisting that it is Southern. History also plays an important role here obviously as Dallas--like Atlanta--was founded as a rail hub within an important cotton-producing state.
I mean, fair enough? But Texas' population was small during the civil war, moreover, Dallas was in its infancy during the civil war. In 1860, Dallas had a population under 1000. Memphis had 23,000; and NOLA 170,000. I wouldn't really say Dallas had grabbed its culture at the time, but I'm sure there's room for disagreement.
I'm not saying Dallas isn't Southern, it just has elements of western and even midwestern, to me. Dallas has almost the same percentage of hispanics as PHX and feels like a shinny new sunbelt city (I guess like Atlanta in some facets as well, but also like Phoenix on that front).
Fort Worth and Dallas are NOT twin cities. They are completely different in their flavor, feel, and in many ways their culture. Saying that is a kick in the balls to people from Fort Worth and they would be right to feel that way. I lived in DFW for 7 years on the Dallas side. We would often go to Fort Worth because it is completely different.
Heres the problem. People are trying to pigeonhole cities into one region where they are clearly on the border of regions. DFW is on the border of the South and the Great Plains. Its Southern, but its also a Plains metro area. Take the two statements below:
DFW is a Southern Metro area. True
DFW is a Great Plains Metro area. True
DFW is Southern to the exclusion of all other regions. False
As for the comparison to other cities, do I think Fort Worth has more in common with Kansas City than Birmingham? You bet I do! I also think Kansas City has more in common with Fort Worth than it does with Cleveland. On the other hand I think Dallas has more in common with Atlanta than it does with Kansas City.
So instead of screaming "DFW IS SOUTHERN" from the top of the mountains, we should recognize the cultural nuances that it does have and realize that it doesnt comfortably belong in just one region.
There twin cities, Again I grew up partly in DFW to be more specific the Tarrant county side Fort Worth county, I lived Fort Worth, Arlington, Mansfield and Euless. DFW is one metropolitan dude. They are literally in just in neighboring counties, in 14 county region. It's like saying SF and Oakland, or Tampa and St Petersburg are in different cultural regions.
And you pretty ignore what I said, My argument is already the south in general is not monolithic
DFW has much is common with Kansas city as Atlanta does with Pittsburgh or Memphis with St Louis.
So argument is like going
ATL is a Southern Metro area. True
ATL is a Piedmont Metro.... True
ATL is Southern to the exclusion of all other regions. False
So issue is not me denying that DFW have similarities and differences to KC rather it's, you ignoring the south in general is already not monolithic. And seeing "The Plains" as region itself which by that logic the rest of South and Midwest could also be divide in groups like this. The cities and states along the Mississippi can be cultural group. The East Coast states, share colonial history and split Appalachia and the piedmont.
So issue is not me denying that DFW have similarities and differences to KC rather it's, you ignoring the south in general is already not monolithic. And seeing "The Plains" as region itself which by that logic the rest of South and Midwest could also be divide in groups like this. The cities and states along the Mississippi can be cultural group. The East Coast states, share colonial history and split Appalachia and the piedmont.
Thank you. I hate how people try acting like all of the South has to be a mirror image of Georgia. By this logic, South Louisiana isn’t the south either
I mean, fair enough? But Texas' population was small during the civil war, moreover, Dallas was in its infancy during the civil war. In 1860, Dallas had a population under 1000. Memphis had 23,000; and NOLA 170,000. I wouldn't really say Dallas had grabbed its culture at the time, but I'm sure there's room for disagreement.
I'm not saying Dallas isn't Southern, it just has elements of western and even midwestern, to me. Dallas has almost the same percentage of hispanics as PHX and feels like a shinny new sunbelt city (I guess like Atlanta in some facets as well, but also like Phoenix on that front).
I was talking about areas around after the civil war, none of place besides New Orleans would qualify as major city during the Civil war. but rather by the turn of century
in 1920
Dallas was 158,976
Memphis was 162,351
Phoenix was 29,053
One of them is not like other. Phoenix didn't really become a major city until after 50's.
I was stating after civil war Blacks stated migrating to cities Dallas like Memphis was in a state that previously had slavery. Free slaves played a part in founding neighborhoods in these cities. This didn't happen in Phoenix. AZ didn't have a large black population after the civil war. Phoenix itself is one completely different timeline.
As far Hispanic growth as stated that is very recent. It's not as deep rooted as place like LA or Miami. The Hispanic population did not pass the black population until the 90's. As DFW grow it has becomes more diverse cosmopolitan. In Phoenix the Hispanic community had a larger presence historically.
But To me calling a place too cosmopolitan to be southern. speaks volumes to how people look down of the south. DFW is now over 7 million a place it size should evolve to have people from cultures everywhere. Just as Metro Atlanta is a lot more diverse than Birmingham. but but I'm just pointing out the history
Thank you. I hate how people try acting like all of the South has to be a mirror image of Georgia. By this logic, South Louisiana isn’t the south either
It's not even mirror image of Georgia but specifically a scale of how much said place is like Mississippi maybe Alabama.
It got to a point you literally can see arguments about how most of the south isn't the South.
Florida peninsula
Texas
Louisiana
North Carolina
Virginia
Because these are some most populated states in the South, This is at least 70% of south population ironically not the south.
There twin cities, Again I grew up partly in DFW to be more specific the Tarrant county side Fort Worth county, I lived Fort Worth, Arlington, Mansfield and Euless. DFW is one metropolitan dude. They are literally in just in neighboring counties, in 14 county region. It's like saying SF and Oakland, or Tampa and St Petersburg are in different cultural regions.
And you pretty ignore what I said, My argument is already the south in general is not monolithic
DFW has much is common with Kansas city as Atlanta does with Pittsburgh or Memphis with St Louis.
So argument is like going
ATL is a Southern Metro area. True
ATL is a Piedmont Metro.... True
ATL is Southern to the exclusion of all other regions. False
So issue is not me denying that DFW have similarities and differences to KC rather it's, you ignoring the south in general is already not monolithic. And seeing "The Plains" as region itself which by that logic the rest of South and Midwest could also be divide in groups like this. The cities and states along the Mississippi can be cultural group. The East Coast states, share colonial history and split Appalachia and the piedmont.
Ive made my opinion known as you have. This isnt a data driven topic and neither one of us can prove any of this. With that, Ill respectfully disagree and move on.
I was talking about areas around after the civil war, none of place besides New Orleans would qualify as major city during the Civil war. but rather by the turn of century
in 1920
Dallas was 158,976
Memphis was 162,351
Phoenix was 29,053
One of them is not like other. Phoenix didn't really become a major city until after 50's.
I was stating after civil war Blacks stated migrating to cities Dallas like Memphis was in a state that previously had slavery. Free slaves played a part in founding neighborhoods in these cities. This didn't happen in Phoenix. AZ didn't have a large black population after the civil war. Phoenix itself is one completely different timeline.
As far Hispanic growth as stated that is very recent. It's not as deep rooted as place like LA or Miami. The Hispanic population did not pass the black population until the 90's. As DFW grow it has becomes more diverse cosmopolitan. In Phoenix the Hispanic community had a larger presence historically.
But To me calling a place too cosmopolitan to be southern. speaks volumes to how people look down of the south. DFW is now over 7 million a place it size should evolve to have people from cultures everywhere. Just as Metro Atlanta is a lot more diverse than Birmingham. but but I'm just pointing out the history
Yeah it's interesting to see how many neighborhoods used to be black neighborhoods in DFW are now almost completely Hispanic.
Ive made my opinion known as you have. This isnt a data driven topic and neither one of us can prove any of this. With that, Ill respectfully disagree and move on.
Besides me as someone who live half life there in DFW and overtly tell you people in DFW consider themselves southerners and no not just the black people. Should be seen as data it self. There southern this, southern that in DFW. I think in places like Norfolk VA, Miami and El Paso there might resist to the southern label. But in DFW at worst it's nonchalant and people just recognize there in the south.
Also most of what I'm saying is literally "data driven"
1. It's define as the American South by the American government so it's technically is.
2. Ironically each region The south, The West, Northeast, Midwest is also divide into sub regions and additional cross regions by the census. Again I never said DFW doesn't have anything in Common with KC but that is just valid as Lumping Atlanta with Pittsburgh and DC is my point.
3. DFW is a one metropolitan define by US government. And while North Texas is not define by government, however by local media of the place itself, as well as logistic marketing, define North Texas as cultural region, There is also North Central Texas Council of Governments. Fort Worth is not like West Texas it's not culturally in West Texas.
4. The environment of North Texas is overtly not the environment of West Texas. And I think this confuse people. North Texas is woodland prairie. West Texas is Semi-arid high plain, desert and mountains.
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