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Last I heard 40% is not a majority, sorry bud. And NoVa is no longer the fastest growing area of Virginia.
BTW, you're only 180 miles away from the NC line in Alexandria (just north of Roanoke Rapids on I-95). That's not a far away land when you're bringing NYC into the picture.
And from Alexandria to Raleigh is 275 miles via I-95 and US 360.
And from there to Durham, 254 via I-95 and I-85.
In between those two points, you pass through one sizable city, Richmond, and one smaller one, Petersburg.
New York City is closer to Alexandria — 235 miles. And along the way, you pass through Baltimore, Wilmington (DE) and Philadelphia — two big cities and one smaller one — unless you opt for the New Jersey Turnpike over I-95 and thus skirt Wilmington and bypass Philadephia via its New Jersey suburbs. (Take the train, which you can do more often from DC headed north than south, and you pass through the center of all three.)
So if you're looking for a different big-city experience from what Washington offers when traveling from Alexandria, you'll find more of it closer to you by heading north rather than south.
I've always hated that argument because a border has to exist somewhere. Pittsburgh is still the Northeast even though it's closer to Cleveland and Columbus than Philadelphia and New York.
That said, there's an argument for including NoVA with the Northeast because it is very much a part of the Bos-Wash corridor, but all of Virginia? That's a stretch. And if the entire state has to go one way or the other, it's highly questionable to do so on the basis of where 40% of the population resides as opposed to the clear majority of 60%.
In 2021, the mid-Atlantic exists as a region with obvious ties to both the Northeast and Southeast but is distinct enough to be considered separately.
The funny thing about that is: If you make that argument, and I think there's a good case for it, the Mason-Dixon Line loses its significance, for Pennsylvania is also part of the Mid-Atlantic region. Or at least Pennsylvania east of the Alleghenies. Once you enter those, you're in Appalachia — and Pittsburgh is the biggest city in Appalachia, but doesn't have much "Appalachian" character to it, perhaps because it was a center of heavy industry for decades.
Edited to add: I think what may contribute most to the confusion concerning Delaware, Maryland and Northern Virginia is: The most urbanized parts of all three states are served by the high-speed rail line Amtrak calls the Northeast Corridor, and I'll wager that's the source of the blurring of the lines. (The NEC ends across the Potomac from NoVa, but NoVa is part of the Washington metropolitan area, and you can get to Union Station easily from a good chunk of it on public transit, so I'd say it counts.)
Last edited by MarketStEl; 08-23-2021 at 05:53 PM..
And from Alexandria to Raleigh is 275 miles via I-95 and US 360.
And from there to Durham, 254 via I-95 and I-85.
In between those two points, you pass through one sizable city, Richmond, and one smaller one, Petersburg.
New York City is closer to Alexandria — 235 miles. And along the way, you pass through Baltimore, Wilmington (DE) and Philadelphia — two big cities and one smaller one — unless you opt for the New Jersey Turnpike over I-95 and thus skirt Wilmington and bypass Philadephia via its New Jersey suburbs. (Take the train, which you can do more often from DC headed north than south, and you pass through the center of all three.)
So if you're looking for a different big-city experience from what Washington offers when traveling from Alexandria, you'll find more of it closer to you by heading north rather than south.
True but the proximal distance to other places doesn't determine what is and isn't Southern. I was just stating that Alexandria is closer to the NC line than to NYC because the poster brought it up.
I'd agree that Alexandria and much of the Northern Virginia suburbs close to D.C. aren't very southern today, maybe they never were (especially Alexandria and Arlington). But some locations in Northern Virginia like western Loudon County and Winchester, which are even further north than Alexandria, are fairly southern despite being less than 50 miles away from Pennsylvania. Just listen to their accents. It's like a world away from PA.
Accents are a tell tale sign of a place's Southernness. You may not find them in all major southern cities today but you should certainly hear them in the outskirts, which is the case with all Virginia cities/counties outside the ones closest to D.C.
True but the proximal distance to other places doesn't determine what is and isn't Southern. I was just stating that Alexandria is closer to the NC line than to NYC because the poster brought it up.
I'd agree that Alexandria and much of the Northern Virginia suburbs close to D.C. aren't very southern today, maybe they never were (especially Alexandria and Arlington). But some locations in Northern Virginia like western Loudon County and Winchester, which are even further north than Alexandria, are fairly southern despite being less than 50 miles away from Pennsylvania. Just listen to their accents. It's like a world away from PA.
Accents are a tell tale sign of a place's Southernness. You may not find them in all major southern cities today but you should certainly hear them in the outskirts, which is the case with all Virginia cities/counties outside the ones closest to D.C.
Having visited Winchester, I agree with you.
I wasn't so much assessing the Southernness of Northern Virginia, which I think we both can agree has diminished in the last 40 to 50 years, as I was attempting to explain why manitopiaa, who lives in a county that was the site of two major Civil War batttles (First and Second Bull Run/Manassas, depending on which side you were on) but has now become part of the Washington exurban fringe, feels more connected to the Northeast than to the South. As I said, if one is an urbanite — and I'm assuming they are — then the distance to the North Carolina state line from Alexandria will matter less than the fact that three other big Northeast cities are closer than the second-closest* decent-sized Southern one (Richmond being the first). Edited to add: While they didn't say so explicitly the way dbcook1, who is without a doubt a Southerner, did, it seems to me that based on the things he regarded as worth traveling to, manitopiaa is also an urbanophile.
*Edited to add further: Actually, the second-closest decent-sized Southern city is also in Virginia: the Hampton Roads conurbation (Norfolk/Hampton/Portsmouth/Virginia Beach). But can we really call that area Southern anymore? (Certainly more so than NoVa, but...)
Last edited by MarketStEl; 08-23-2021 at 07:05 PM..
The funny thing about that is: If you make that argument, and I think there's a good case for it, the Mason-Dixon Line loses its significance, for Pennsylvania is also part of the Mid-Atlantic region. Or at least Pennsylvania east of the Alleghenies. Once you enter those, you're in Appalachia — and Pittsburgh is the biggest city in Appalachia, but doesn't have much "Appalachian" character to it, perhaps because it was a center of heavy industry for decades.
Edited to add: I think what may contribute most to the confusion concerning Delaware, Maryland and Northern Virginia is: The most urbanized parts of all three states are served by the high-speed rail line Amtrak calls the Northeast Corridor, and I'll wager that's the source of the blurring of the lines. (The NEC ends across the Potomac from NoVa, but NoVa is part of the Washington metropolitan area, and you can get to Union Station easily from a good chunk of it on public transit, so I'd say it counts.)
The Mason-Dixon line was never meant to be significant in the way it came to be in the first place, so that's not a problem. But as far as the modern mid-Atlantic region, I'd only include the entire states of DE, MD, VA, and possibly WV (which defies easy categorization), plus DC. PA, NJ, and NY are the historic mid-Atlantic and the Philadelphia and south Jersey areas have places and things with "mid-Atlantic" included in their proper names, but today their primary identities overall are as Northeastern states.
The Mason-Dixon line was never meant to be significant in the way it came to be in the first place, so that's not a problem. But as far as the modern mid-Atlantic region, I'd only include the entire states of DE, MD, VA, and possibly WV (which defies easy categorization), plus DC. PA, NJ, and NY are the historic mid-Atlantic and the Philadelphia and south Jersey areas have places and things with "mid-Atlantic" included in their proper names, but today their primary identities overall are as Northeastern states.
I definitely agree with this post. DE, MD, VA. and possibly WV could all be considered the modern Mid-Atlantic region. These states were historically the population centers of the upper south. They have always had a close connection with the Northeast. All of these states have southern culture since what we consider southern culture largely developed here first. North Carolina was mostly settled by people from Virginia and the deep south adopted a lot of its culture from Virginia as well. However if you think of a region as an area where people share similar cultural and geographic experiences then lumping Virginia with the entire deep south just does not accurately reflect the experience of people from the state. Even in Hampton Roads which borders North Carolina people are more likely to take road trips to cities in the North such as Philly or New York rather than cities in the south such as Charlotte or Atlanta. Since Northern major cities are closer to most people in Virginia they also are often the place where many Virginians choose to relocate for job advancement. Also I recently was reading about the travels of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Apparently George Washington had never been south of Virginia until he became president. Thomas Jefferson never traveled south of Virginia at all. However they both frequently travelled to the North. I know those are just a couple of examples, but it highlights that even during the early history of the country people in Virginia really did not have reason to travel further south . So although Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware are traditional "upper south" states, the people of the states have historically and to this day had a stronger connection to places in the North than to places in the deep south.
Given that the poll gives advantage to the NE, why has the SE the last 40 years grown so much more? Granted NYC, DC and Boston are expensive places to live but costs alone can't be the reason growth in the SE has been so much better. 40 years ago, Florida was the only SE state in the top 10. Now you have Georgia and NC in the top ten and Florida has leapt several NE states to be #3. Tennessee has moved from 17th to 15th.
Given that the poll gives advantage to the NE, why has the SE the last 40 years grown so much more? Granted NYC, DC and Boston are expensive places to live but costs alone can't be the reason growth in the SE has been so much better. 40 years ago, Florida was the only SE state in the top 10. Now you have Georgia and NC in the top ten and Florida has leapt several NE states to be #3. Tennessee has moved from 17th to 15th.
COL, weather, more space, and a more laid back lifestyle are all primary factors in the Southeast's growth over the last 40 years. Same with the Southwest migration over the years for people who wanted to get away from the big metros such as Chicago, LA (minus the weather factor) and SF.
Given that the poll gives advantage to the NE, why has the SE the last 40 years grown so much more? Granted NYC, DC and Boston are expensive places to live but costs alone can't be the reason growth in the SE has been so much better. 40 years ago, Florida was the only SE state in the top 10. Now you have Georgia and NC in the top ten and Florida has leapt several NE states to be #3. Tennessee has moved from 17th to 15th.
Though it's a gross oversimplification of a complex issue or circumstance, it's really for the same reasons the midwest and western parts of the country saw an influx of migrants in the 19th century.
It's a less competitive place to be, even still. The dollar stretches further. There is more land, and better positioned land available. And yes, the weather (in some areas) is better.
But, as you say, NYC, DC, and Boston remain quite expensive as they have been able to stay ultra competitive and reinvent themselves. Despite stagnant or slow population growth, GDP and high growth industry continue to boom.. Political might, substantial higher education, and healthcare & R&D are a blessing and a curse. As a result, I suspect a lot of the outward migration comes from those in less-than-desirable circumstances, or the younger generation looking for more with less.
The southern metros will continue to become more expensive, as demand continues to increase. Over time, we will see a healthier balance, north, south, east, and west. Until then, expect much of the same.. The south will grow with more velocity.
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