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American's are very generous with their MSA/CSA areas compared to Canada. If we used the same definitions and bloating of city sizes as the U.S, the whole GTA would be at about 10 million+ as well.
I don't know why this is so hard for some people. A CMA and MSA are not the same thing. MSA's are more expansive. If you think they are the same, I suggest you research the two more than you have. Toronto would have a greater population if it used MSA measures and greater still if it used CSA.
A CMA in the case of Toronto is even smaller than a contiguous urbanized area. This isn't 'pretending' it is about understanding what you are comparing accurately.
Regardless of measure, Chicago does have a greater GDP than Toronto that is no doubt, but it would be great if individuals either understood the differences in what they are comparing or simply admit they don't understand and not compare. Another discrepancy, for example Healthcare costs are 2X higher in the U.S than Canada and Canadians pay for healthcare through taxation not privately.
That all said, you can't even compare 9/15ths of Ontario's economy to the GDP of a inferred Toronto MSA or CSA because there is more concentration of wealth in the Toronto region than rural parts.
I guess “estimate” not pretend is the better word. I even gave Toronto an extra two spots jumping like Atlanta and Philly when jumping from CMA to MSA without really doing any math.
But the economy of the “GTA” even liberally applied is bringing up the rear of pretty mid tier US cities like Philly, Seattle, Boston, Houston, Dallas etc. not really close to Chicago/SF/DC. Also outside the east coast which has some general density. For the most part the MSA leads to enormous amounts of totally empty land being incorporated into a metro while a place like Hamilton, even in the US ends up being a secondary MSA.
Like Newton and Jasper County Indiana add like 1000sq miles but only like ~44,000 people.
But regardless, cities in small countries get more Foreign investment and more international travelers because of a small domestic market.
But compared to their scale US cities seem to be underrepresented.
I think you can make an argument of Toronto over Boston/Houston/Dallas etc as a global city because presence in Canada usually means presence in Toronto but Chicago has a metro GDP of $764B that’s enormous, which as of 2022 (somewhat due to dollar/euro strength) is actually bigger than Paris for sense of scale. So it’s true it elite in a way few cities are.
Last edited by btownboss4; 12-18-2022 at 02:58 PM..
I guess “estimate” not pretend is the better word. I even gave Toronto an extra two spots jumping like Atlanta and Philly when jumping from CMA to MSA without really doing any math.
But the economy of the “GTA” even liberally applied is bringing up the rear of pretty mid tier US cities like Philly, Seattle, Boston, Houston, Dallas etc. not really close to Chicago/SF/DC.
But regardless, cities in small countries get more Foreign investment and more international travelers because of a small domestic market.
But compared to their scale US cities seem to be underrepresented.
I think you can make an argument of Toronto over Boston/Houston/Dallas etc as a global city because presence in Canada usually means presence in Toronto but Chicago has a metro GDP of $764B that’s enormous, which as of 2022 (somewhat due to dollar/euro strength) is actually bigger than Paris for sense of scale. So it’s true it elite in a way few cities are.
Not sure how you are calling the first group of cities pretty mid tier and DC and SF separate with Chicago. DC is less than 10B away from DFW but it is 160B away from Chicago. SF just recently passed DFW and Houston.
DC and SF may be at the top of the tier with these cities FOR NOW, but they are certainly not on par with Chicago from a GDP perspective. DFW may have already passed DC.
Or are you assigning all of Baltimore's GDP to DC like Baltimore doesn't generate any dollars? Like if there was no DC there would be no Baltimore? The port of Baltimore was created for DC and any $$ generated is because of DC? Baltimore would be nothing without DC?
Baltimore is not a suburb. This brings back the comment made earlier- US metropolitan areas are overly generous
Not sure how you are calling the first group of cities pretty mid tier and DC and SF separate with Chicago. DC is less than 10B away from DFW but it is 160B away from Chicago. SF just recently passed DFW and Houston.
DC and SF may be at the top of the tier with these cities FOR NOW, but they are certainly not on par with Chicago from a GDP perspective. DFW may have already passed DC.
Or are you assigning all of Baltimore's GDP to DC like Baltimore doesn't generate any dollars? Like if there was no DC there would be no Baltimore? The port of Baltimore was created for DC and any $$ generated is because of DC? Baltimore would be nothing without DC?
Baltimore is not a suburb. This brings back the comment made earlier- US metropolitan areas are overly generous
I guess Dallas belongs more in the former group, since there is a ~13% gap between it and Houston
I guess it’s hard because like Philly or Atlanta don’t really belong at the DC level but there is no great cutoff. Looking at 2022, Dallas/Houston is the biggest drop (just over $60B)
I guess Dallas belongs more in the former group, since there is a ~13% gap between it and Houston
I guess it’s hard because like Philly or Atlanta don’t really belong at the DC level but there is no great cutoff. Looking at 2022, Dallas/Houston is the biggest drop (just over $60B)
Houston was below all those cities in the early 00, it was ahead of all of them except probably DC from the mid 00's to the mid 10's.
SF was above all of them in the 90s, by the mid 00s it was below most of them, by the mid 10's it was above all of them.
It's silly to focus on one year for GDP when SF,DFW and DC passed Houston like 4 years ago and might be back below it in the next 4.
DFW and Houston especially keep jostling each other for position of you think either is pulling away from each other then you have not been paying much attention. They flip flop at least once a decade. In 08 DFW took a nose dive while Houston soared. By 15 energy was plummeting while the country was booming so Houston plummeted while DFW and the rest of the country soared. Same thing in the 90s and thing in the 80s.
In the early 80s DFW took a dive while Houston soared, by the end of the decade DFW and the rest of the country was moving on up like George and Weasie while Houston was James and Florida Evans
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austincool
Top 25 largest metropolitan GDP (in billions 2013)
1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA - 1379.7
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA - 792.4
3. Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI - 585.9
4. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX - 463.7
5. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV - 455.8
6. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX - 436.4
7. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA - 377.2
8. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD - 373.9
9. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH - 346.4
10. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA - 304.9
11. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL - 283.4
12. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA - 268.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law
Nominal Gross Domestic Product (GDP) by Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), 2016:
01. New York: $1.657 Trillion
02. Los Angeles: $1.001 Trillion
03. Chicago: $651.222 Billion
04. Dallas/Fort Worth: $511.606 Billion
05. Washington D.C.: $509.224
06. Houston: $478.618 Billion
07. San Francisco/Oakland: $470.529 Billion
08. Philadelphia: $431.038 Billion
09. Boston: $422.660 Billion
10. Atlanta: $363.7 Billion
11. Seattle: $330.409 Billion
12. Miami/Fort Lauderdale: $328.482 Billion
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Anyhow, here is the previous 10-year period of growth:
Metro Area------GDP-2001-GDP-2011-10-Year Growth
1 New York----------943----1,312--+39.1%
2 Los Angeles------518----742-----+43.2%
3 Chicago-----------401----542----+35.1%
4 Washington-------262----438----+67.1%
5 Houston-----------211----382---+81.0%
6 Dallas-------------227----359---+58.1%
7 Philadelphia------242----351---+45.0%
8 Boston------------234----341---+45.7%
9 San Francisco----240----329---+37.0%
10 Atlanta----------208----281---+35.0%
11 Miami-----------179----254---+41.8%
12 Seattle----------159----251---+57.8%
Metro Area-----GDP 2011--GDP 2021-10 Year Growth
1 New York----------$1,312---$1,992---+51.8%
2 Los Angeles-------$742-----$1,124---+51.4%
3 Chicago -----------$542-----$764-----+40.9%
4 San Francisco-----$329----$668----+103.0%
5 Washington-------$438----$607------+38.5%
6 Dallas--------------$359----$598------+66.5%
7 Houston-----------$382-----$537-----+40.5%
8 Boston-------------$341----$531------+55.7%
9 Seattle-------------$251----$479------+90.8%
10 Philadelphia------$351----$477------+35.8%
11 Atlanta-----------$281----$473------+68.3%
12 Miami-------------$254----$417------+64.1%
13 San Jose---------$184----$410-----+122.8%
Don't bad GDP stats off a limited time. Look for trends
I guess “estimate” not pretend is the better word. I even gave Toronto an extra two spots jumping like Atlanta and Philly when jumping from CMA to MSA without really doing any math.
But the economy of the “GTA” even liberally applied is bringing up the rear of pretty mid tier US cities like Philly, Seattle, Boston, Houston, Dallas etc. not really close to Chicago/SF/DC. Also outside the east coast which has some general density. For the most part the MSA leads to enormous amounts of totally empty land being incorporated into a metro while a place like Hamilton, even in the US ends up being a secondary MSA.
Like Newton and Jasper County Indiana add like 1000sq miles but only like ~44,000 people.
But regardless, cities in small countries get more Foreign investment and more international travelers because of a small domestic market.
But compared to their scale US cities seem to be underrepresented.
I think you can make an argument of Toronto over Boston/Houston/Dallas etc as a global city because presence in Canada usually means presence in Toronto but Chicago has a metro GDP of $764B that’s enormous, which as of 2022 (somewhat due to dollar/euro strength) is actually bigger than Paris for sense of scale. So it’s true it elite in a way few cities are.
I'm not surprised that the U.S has higher GDP than Canadian cities. Even in the case of Toronto where it wouldn't perform as strongly and I provided some reasons for that in earlier posts in this thread. I just wanted to make sure we are making apples to apples comparisons in terms of population.
American cities benefit from the global multinational scale that the U.S has in terms of business. How well this translates to most people on the ground in these cities is another matter. They are great for the wealthy elite to be sure.
Before I respond to this can you please provide your source for U.S city GDP stats. You keep throwing things around about your cities but I have no idea which list you are referring to. Are you Using MSA's for example?
It’s quoted from 18Montclairs thread “BEA releases 2021 MSA and CSA GDPs”, and it’s MSA’s not CSA’s (which I personally don’t really believe in)
I'm not surprised that the U.S has higher GDP than Canadian cities. Even in the case of Toronto where it wouldn't perform as strongly and I provided some reasons for that in earlier posts in this thread. I just wanted to make sure we are making apples to apples comparisons in terms of population.
American cities benefit from the global multinational scale that the U.S has in terms of business. How well this translates to most people on the ground in these cities is another matter. They are great for the wealthy elite to be sure.
Let’s pretend you have a 2 tech companies one in Atlanta, one in Toronto
You get VC funding from San Francisco
Your company grows, you work with Microsoft in Seattle to get it into Windows
You IPO in New York at launch.
Now your investors want profitability so you hire Bain Capital in Boston to restructure.
In Atlanta 0 of that is international business. In Toronto all of it is.
Toronto is a legit international power but Montreal largely is on that list because of Canada’s reliance on US for investment in general
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