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Because people already don’t live in the most amenity rich areas of those cities, you don’t have to live on top of them to access them.
Can you really access the same variety of jobs and incomes that you can in Boston in Miami? Economic black data wouldn’t indicate you can’t. That’s why I use GDP per capita as a proxy Can you access the same opportunities as NYC in Birmingham or do you stand a better shot in ATL?
I think, if anything, now that many people can work remote you can truly see where people want to be.
This is anecdotal and I claim no statistical significance from it but our company implemented a policy where anyone can work from anywhere we have an office. We have had shifting aplenty from it. That has included three African American employees who moved to Houston (two from Philly, one from Boston) simply because they wanted to. Before, they didn't have the option of being in a different city with the same pay but now they do. Part of the reason Florida has blown up with people of different races is because of that as well. I know we've had many people from the Northeast move there for that reason.
Opportunity differs from person to person especially post-pandemic. If I were to chose a city to show up with no job, of course Id rather be in Boston than Birmingham. But if I am applying all over, there is a chance I can get just as high a paying job in Birmingham. During the pandemic I was furloughed. My job opportunities came from places like Little Rock and Huntsville and they were willing to pay as much as I made here. Of course I didn't leave.
So what African Americans (and every group for that matter) do over the next few years will be telling.
First of all, none of these reasons are based on exact science, polling or anything of that nature. It's all based on personal experience.
And from my experiences living in Houston close to 15 years, living in Atlanta all of 2 years and being very familiar with DFW there are several different reasons why AA's from other regions move to Atlanta, Houston, DFW, Charlotte specifically.
COL- Is definitely one of the most important reasons but it ain't the sole reason. I say this based off conversations I've had with people from cities in the Northeast/ Midwest and Westcoast. Does cost of living come up? Yeah for sure, but I've never heard anybody simply just leave the answer at COL.
QOL- I'm always amazed at how little so many Black Americans care about things such as public transportation, walkability, etc. Now I've heard Black transplants from NYC/ Philly/ Chicago/ Jersey complain about how inconvenient southern metros are in comparison to more urban walkable areas. I've heard NYC people specifically complain about the slowness of these southern cities. But in the same breath some of those same transplants when asked, "Would you move back to such and such". A lot and I MEAN A LOT will say HELL NO. The cost of living is one reason but I do hear other complaints that usually result in them saying, "I love to go back and visit but not to live." A lot of transplants feel as these particular southern cities have higher Quality of Life. Don't shoot the messenger.
Weather- This is a complaint I hear a lot from people from the Northeast and Midwest specifically. Clearly not California.
Word of Mouth/Popularity- So this is more so what I hear from Single Black Millennials from other parts of the country. Atlanta has been popular for decades and it attracts a lot of wannabe entertainers so that's no surprise. But I've noticed for the past 5 years Houston is starting to get some of that same attraction. Black social life in cities like Atlanta and Houston for single Black Millennials are more appealing than some of these walkable pedestrian friendly cities that are favorites among Urbanist. Think about it, these particular 4 cities are filled with Black transplants from all over the country and natives. Being an Entrepreneur myself and attending social events on the regular for networking purposes and what not you'll be amazed at how many transplants you meet at these events. Transient crowds tend to create a vibrant atmosphere and people more willing to work with each other and look out for one another. I was just in Chicago and fell in love with the city. I definitely prefer it to Houston in some metrics. But it's Black social scene wasn't nearly as vibrant as what Houston has to offer. One of the reasons is because there's not a lot of people from different regions moving to Chicago. So social scenes there can feel very local and intimidating to a transplant. That's not the case in Houston, Atlanta and Charlotte. With DFW honestly it's always a mixed experience for some reason.
Representation/Culture- Some Black Americans are attracted to seeing cities with Black political representation, robust Black Entrepreneurship, Black owned businesses, Black culture embraced in the dominant society, HBCU presence. When I go to cities like LA, SF , Seattle for example Black representation in the most popular and energetic areas of the cities seem to be little to non existent. When I visited Philly Black representation was everywhere BUT didn't see a lot of visible Black entrepreneurship or Black Owned Businesses in the more popular areas. Chicago felt a little more visible than Philadelphia but was definitely just as segregated from a social setting perspective. Me and my Wife stayed in River North and at times were some of the only Black people in certain spaces. We never felt uncomfortable or anything but it was definitely noticeable. Atlanta, Houston and Charlotte would be completely different in that sense. DFW would probably resemble Chicago more honestly.
And I run into Black transplants of all financial backgrounds. I generally run into Middle Class Black transplants(because I'm usually in spaces that attract Middle Class to Affluent Black folks). There are definitely lower class to working class Black transplants as well. Also from my experience it's generally lower class to working class Millennials that end up moving back to where they came from because they weren't financially prepared for the move. I do hear people who moved out of these cities because it just wasn't their style but generally most transplants know what they're getting into when they move to these cities.
Something else to consider is that the percentage of black people in the South is roughly in the high 50’s in terms of percentage and that isn’t much higher than the lowest percentage at about 50% in 1970, I believe. So, this might help indicate even further that the migration Down South is to select areas and by a select amount of people.
First of all, none of these reasons are based on exact science, polling or anything of that nature. It's all based on personal experience.
And from my experiences living in Houston close to 15 years, living in Atlanta all of 2 years and being very familiar with DFW there are several different reasons why AA's from other regions move to Atlanta, Houston, DFW, Charlotte specifically.
COL- Is definitely one of the most important reasons but it ain't the sole reason. I say this based off conversations I've had with people from cities in the Northeast/ Midwest and Westcoast. Does cost of living come up? Yeah for sure, but I've never heard anybody simply just leave the answer at COL.
QOL- I'm always amazed at how little so many Black Americans care about things such as public transportation, walkability, etc. Now I've heard Black transplants from NYC/ Philly/ Chicago/ Jersey complain about how inconvenient southern metros are in comparison to more urban walkable areas. I've heard NYC people specifically complain about the slowness of these southern cities. But in the same breath some of those same transplants when asked, "Would you move back to such and such". A lot and I MEAN A LOT will say HELL NO. The cost of living is one reason but I do hear other complaints that usually result in them saying, "I love to go back and visit but not to live." A lot of transplants feel as these particular southern cities have higher Quality of Life. Don't shoot the messenger.
Weather- This is a complaint I hear a lot from people from the Northeast and Midwest specifically. Clearly not California.
Word of Mouth/Popularity- So this is more so what I hear from Single Black Millennials from other parts of the country. Atlanta has been popular for decades and it attracts a lot of wannabe entertainers so that's no surprise. But I've noticed for the past 5 years Houston is starting to get some of that same attraction. Black social life in cities like Atlanta and Houston for single Black Millennials are more appealing than some of these walkable pedestrian friendly cities that are favorites among Urbanist. Think about it, these particular 4 cities are filled with Black transplants from all over the country and natives. Being an Entrepreneur myself and attending social events on the regular for networking purposes and what not you'll be amazed at how many transplants you meet at these events. Transient crowds tend to create a vibrant atmosphere and people more willing to work with each other and look out for one another. I was just in Chicago and fell in love with the city. I definitely prefer it to Houston in some metrics. But it's Black social scene wasn't nearly as vibrant as what Houston has to offer. One of the reasons is because there's not a lot of people from different regions moving to Chicago. So social scenes there can feel very local and intimidating to a transplant. That's not the case in Houston, Atlanta and Charlotte. With DFW honestly it's always a mixed experience for some reason.
Representation/Culture- Some Black Americans are attracted to seeing cities with Black political representation, robust Black Entrepreneurship, Black owned businesses, Black culture embraced in the dominant society, HBCU presence. When I go to cities like LA, SF , Seattle for example Black representation in the most popular and energetic areas of the cities seem to be little to non existent. When I visited Philly Black representation was everywhere BUT didn't see a lot of visible Black entrepreneurship or Black Owned Businesses in the more popular areas. Chicago felt a little more visible than Philadelphia but was definitely just as segregated from a social setting perspective. Me and my Wife stayed in River North and at times were some of the only Black people in certain spaces. We never felt uncomfortable or anything but it was definitely noticeable. Atlanta, Houston and Charlotte would be completely different in that sense. DFW would probably resemble Chicago more honestly.
And I run into Black transplants of all financial backgrounds. I generally run into Middle Class Black transplants(because I'm usually in spaces that attract Middle Class to Affluent Black folks). There are definitely lower class to working class Black transplants as well. Also from my experience it's generally lower class to working class Millennials that end up moving back to where they came from because they weren't financially prepared for the move. I do hear people who moved out of these cities because it just wasn't their style but generally most transplants know what they're getting into when they move to these cities.
Another thing I’ve heard from working and middle class folks that move back is the aspect of a safety net and select services(healthcare related) that aren’t as readily available or to a level that is available in their former states if times get hard or other needs. So, that is something else I’ve heard from some in the move back crowd.
I think, if anything, now that many people can work remote you can truly see where people want to be.
This is anecdotal and I claim no statistical significance from it but our company implemented a policy where anyone can work from anywhere we have an office. We have had shifting aplenty from it. That has included three African American employees who moved to Houston (two from Philly, one from Boston) simply because they wanted to. Before, they didn't have the option of being in a different city with the same pay but now they do. Part of the reason Florida has blown up with people of different races is because of that as well. I know we've had many people from the Northeast move there for that reason.
Opportunity differs from person to person especially post-pandemic. If I were to chose a city to show up with no job, of course Id rather be in Boston than Birmingham. But if I am applying all over, there is a chance I can get just as high a paying job in Birmingham. During the pandemic I was furloughed. My job opportunities came from places like Little Rock and Huntsville and they were willing to pay as much as I made here. Of course I didn't leave.
So what African Americans (and every group for that matter) do over the next few years will be telling.
... how many people wanna tell you, a Houstonian, they moved to your city because they couldn't afford it back home? That's generally not what people are going to say, its embarrassing (and I feel like moreso in a work setting) and there's some stigma behind that. You have to take anecdotes like that with a grain of salt.
Almost everyone is gonna say "yea I wanted to" once they get down to Houston. Not "my rent went up 40% or my tax bill jumped". No, they're going to say "I was looking for a change." Yea... a change in rent or mortgage. Or they simply wanted a bigger home. It can be a thousand things, but the #1 predictor of where people will move is where they can afford. Everything else is second to that.
If Houston were as expensive as Boston no one would up and pack across the country and move without a significant pay increase. Florida has blown up because it is cheap and warm, the same as Houston.
Saying that jobs pay the same in Houston as they do in Boston isn't true. Maybe in some niche industries but on the whole? No, absolutely not.
They say COL is 41% more in Boston but pay is only 11% more than Houston so for many people that an easy economic choice. Its not a coincidence African Americans arent flocking to expensive metros with the best scenery, most progressive legislation, best schools, lowest crime...how we end up ignoring this is beyond me. You move where you can afford and maintain or improve your material QOL. And honestly with Philly to Houston that makes sense, its a much softer and less harsh physical environment. Even Boston to Houston if you'd like to own a home.
I WFH at a Boston job. I got hired during the pandemic. Prior to the Pandemic 100% of the operations were in Boston now we've abandoned our office 70% of our multiracial highly diverse office lives outside of Massachusetts entirely. Which is why I say remote work has allowed people to move to cheaper areas and the 2021 numbers likely reflect the post-pandemic tastes and if you choose a year pre-2021 things look very different all of these numbers do. I said that pages ago
... how many people wanna tell you, a Houstonian, they moved to your city because they couldn't afford it back home?
You're doing too much assuming about that.
I know what they make. If they couldn't make it off $120K in the Boston or Philly areas, that is a personal problem.
As I said, Im not claiming that it's statistically significant, but I sense from your end that you're trying to portray it solely as a COL thing with no other reason (besides ATL).
Don't forget that a lot of AA families came from the south originally and have deep roots down there, as well as fond stories passed down generations about "home." Beyond that I think it really comes down to two main things for most people of all races leaving to the south - weather and COL. If remote options stay open for many professions for the foreseeable future (as it appears they might), my wife and I very well may head down to the sun and sand as soon as our youngest is done college. When the pandemic first hit, we rented an Air B-N-B in Jacksonville Beach for three weeks. It was amazing to wake up and take a run on the beach, go surfing over lunch and generally enjoy the longer days and mild weather (and this was in March). I don't think I'm alone in these sentiments.
First of all, none of these reasons are based on exact science, polling or anything of that nature. It's all based on personal experience.
And from my experiences living in Houston close to 15 years, living in Atlanta all of 2 years and being very familiar with DFW there are several different reasons why AA's from other regions move to Atlanta, Houston, DFW, Charlotte specifically.
COL- Is definitely one of the most important reasons but it ain't the sole reason. I say this based off conversations I've had with people from cities in the Northeast/ Midwest and Westcoast. Does cost of living come up? Yeah for sure, but I've never heard anybody simply just leave the answer at COL.
QOL- I'm always amazed at how little so many Black Americans care about things such as public transportation, walkability, etc. Now I've heard Black transplants from NYC/ Philly/ Chicago/ Jersey complain about how inconvenient southern metros are in comparison to more urban walkable areas. I've heard NYC people specifically complain about the slowness of these southern cities. But in the same breath some of those same transplants when asked, "Would you move back to such and such". A lot and I MEAN A LOT will say HELL NO. The cost of living is one reason but I do hear other complaints that usually result in them saying, "I love to go back and visit but not to live." A lot of transplants feel as these particular southern cities have higher Quality of Life. Don't shoot the messenger.
Weather- This is a complaint I hear a lot from people from the Northeast and Midwest specifically. Clearly not California.
Word of Mouth/Popularity- So this is more so what I hear from Single Black Millennials from other parts of the country. Atlanta has been popular for decades and it attracts a lot of wannabe entertainers so that's no surprise. But I've noticed for the past 5 years Houston is starting to get some of that same attraction. Black social life in cities like Atlanta and Houston for single Black Millennials are more appealing than some of these walkable pedestrian friendly cities that are favorites among Urbanist. Think about it, these particular 4 cities are filled with Black transplants from all over the country and natives. Being an Entrepreneur myself and attending social events on the regular for networking purposes and what not you'll be amazed at how many transplants you meet at these events. Transient crowds tend to create a vibrant atmosphere and people more willing to work with each other and look out for one another. I was just in Chicago and fell in love with the city. I definitely prefer it to Houston in some metrics. But it's Black social scene wasn't nearly as vibrant as what Houston has to offer. One of the reasons is because there's not a lot of people from different regions moving to Chicago. So social scenes there can feel very local and intimidating to a transplant. That's not the case in Houston, Atlanta and Charlotte. With DFW honestly it's always a mixed experience for some reason.
Representation/Culture- Some Black Americans are attracted to seeing cities with Black political representation, robust Black Entrepreneurship, Black owned businesses, Black culture embraced in the dominant society, HBCU presence. When I go to cities like LA, SF , Seattle for example Black representation in the most popular and energetic areas of the cities seem to be little to non existent. When I visited Philly Black representation was everywhere BUT didn't see a lot of visible Black entrepreneurship or Black Owned Businesses in the more popular areas. Chicago felt a little more visible than Philadelphia but was definitely just as segregated from a social setting perspective. Me and my Wife stayed in River North and at times were some of the only Black people in certain spaces. We never felt uncomfortable or anything but it was definitely noticeable. Atlanta, Houston and Charlotte would be completely different in that sense. DFW would probably resemble Chicago more honestly.
And I run into Black transplants of all financial backgrounds. I generally run into Middle Class Black transplants(because I'm usually in spaces that attract Middle Class to Affluent Black folks). There are definitely lower-class to working class Black transplants as well. Also from my experience it's generally lower-class to working class Millennials that end up moving back to where they came from because they weren't financially prepared for the move. I do hear people who moved out of these cities because it just wasn't their style but generally most transplants know what they're getting into when they move to these cities.
COL- usually the reason I hear in Boston or from Bostonians- but then again Boston is more expensive than anywhere else in the northeast.
QOL- I hear the bolded 100% from New Yorkers- really no one else, they say it's simply to hectic, rude and rushed in NYC then again I hear this mostly from Gen X and Boomers, as they get older get removed from NYC, and cannot 'hack' when they go back. I recently heard someone from Boston say "gangstas dont die they get chubby and move down south" (it was a rap lyric that originally said "Miami". I think you can apply that to a lot of people in general.
Most black people use subways and bicycles up north because they have to not because they want to and we have a culture that emphasizes automobiles in Rap and TV. It's much less in the north, but still you know is not as socially acceptable for us not to have car (performative culture, respectability etc etc) When we take the train were coming from rather far-flung areas with dingy stations with not much new retail around. It's different than what you see Downtown. I enjoy it, I like being amongst the people, seeing the city out of the window, putting my feet to pavement, earning my way around in a sense - many don't.
Weather- yes. It's a Bonus but I don't ever hear it as a major motivator.
Word of Mouth Popularity- I hear this mainly from people that never actually end up moving. Or if they do they boomerang back like you alluded to. Often because I find those people do not have their priorities in order and have ducks in a row compared to people who move for job opportunities. Again where Im from the job opportunities are not an issue. A lot of them in Massachusetts talk about California, I just don't hear much about the South apart from Florida up there. I know what you're saying to be true in Boston there are few black people from other states (only 16% of the city) and they mostly stick to each other. They would never say its intimidating in the black culture p there but more so that its rundown/out of the way and/or too West Indian and they're just generally unaware of the black venues, events, social clubs etc. They feel like everyone is insular.
Rarely did I ever meet a [i]newly[/I ]arrived African American when I lived in Boston- and when I did-, near a university or I met them in a white space or they live in a white neighborhood like Brighton in the City of Cambridge. Here in Baltimore, I meet mostly people from Baltimore the Northeast and a few people born in North Carolina, but it is certainly not a transplant-based black population with people from all over the country. DC was that for sure.
Representation/Culture[/B ]-I found Philly to have far more African Americans downtown than Chicago. I found Downtown Chicago to be whiter than I thought it would be you could really feel how its 28% black (feels more like 8% downtown) and Philly is more like 41%. The segregation there is real. I also don't think people who live in those cities are very concerned about what goes on downtown because most of us don't go downtown that often- there are many neighborhoods in all these cities. A lot of the people I hear who move for culture tend to come from suburban areas of Boston or Philadelphia and really at least in Boston's case know nothing about the black culture within the city or are intimidated by it to an extent. It seems that the poorer African American neighborhoods arent how people understand or identify black areas of southern cities. They don't carry the same damaging infamy. They are aware they can find HBCUS and upwardly suburban black populations in the south much more easily. The northern inner cities, at least in the Northeast have a wide myriad of pro-black or other general "black" organizations, facilities etc. It certainly feels like a much bigger part of your identity in northern cities than in southern cities IMO so I don't relate to this. Up in Baltimore, Philly, NYC, NYC and Roxbury, black people have a lot of Pan-African flags, Kwanzaa banners, Black this Black that, five percenters, nation of Islam, 52 blocks practitioners throughout the black neighborhood. The suburbs are very different and much more isolating especially in Boston orto a lesser extent Philly.
In general, I enjoy the cultural niches (and eyes, segregation that goes along with it), history, and the feeling of striving and scrapping in the Northeast. Many Americans do not. The US South is a pretty unique region in the world in its layout whereas the Northeast is a bit more typical of much of there rest of the world.
I know what they make. If they couldn't make it off $120K in the Boston or Philly areas, that is a personal problem.
As I said, Im not claiming that it's statistically significant, but I sense from your end that you're trying to portray it solely as a COL thing with no other reason (besides ATL).
120k isn't much if they have a child or even want to own a home. You can make it but the question is is it how you want to make it? You can absolutely save more and make different investments in Houston on 120k - for sure. The COL is so much cheaper, especially housing, you can change your lifestyle pretty dramatically. I think you are heavily discounting that. The comparison in where you could live and what home you can live in. Its a huge difference at what you could buy at 400k in Houston versus Boston. Yea you could make it in Boston but you'd make it in this as opposed to this in Houston.. and were supposed to belive like COL is not a major driver for people that make the decision to move? I just don't belive that, I really dont think that's a genuine answer. At $120k youre still very much reliant on your income and need to save. You can buy a home and a buildable plot of land nearby in Houston for the cost of one floor in a 110-year-old tenement in Boston.
And again, personal problems are not something they'd want to divulge.
As for Philly, I think it would depend heavily on where in the metro as prices vary widely there and so does the built environment- more so than Boston IMO.
I put Atlanta on a different plane than some of these other cities because these other cities do not carry the same level of cultural cache, and they dont market themselves that way. I feel like I've given very logical straightforward answers to a lot of the questions you've asked. Ultimately, do you want the question to be answered or no? You don't have to like my answers but it just seems like none of the answers are sufficient for you.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 05-11-2023 at 07:50 PM..
Ultimately, do you want the question to be answered or no? You don't have to like my answers but it just seems like none of the answers are sufficient for you.
You seem to believe that COL is the literal only reason people move to Houston, DFW, or Charlotte. That is somewhat hard to believe based on my encounters here. It is of course a significant reason. I don't question that. My goal is to combine a list of reasons. Saying it is solely COL comes across as extremely dismissive especially since several people who have made the move contradict that.
I also say this because there are lots of places up north bleeding African Americans that are not expensive, have great amenities, and have large black populations. Is it simply that people don't like cold weather? Perhaps, I don't know.
And two of the three people we re-located are single no kids. If you can't make it in Boston or Philadelphia on 120K single no kids, yes its a personal problem. Or perhaps warm weather and suburban lifestyles are a huge part of it.
Last edited by As Above So Below...; 05-11-2023 at 08:25 PM..
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