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One thing is for certain. In terms of history, Chicago absolutely is a Yankee city the way Cleveland is. Philly isn't a Yankee city. It is Quaker. Historically Pennsylvania was Quaker territory and Chicago Yankee.
The 11 Nations lists Chicago in Yankee territory where Philly is Midlands (deriving from Quaker culture).
Not that that makes any difference in terms of Southern influence however.
No question Philly was/is ground zero for the Quakers. Billy Penn, founder of the City and State, was a Quaker as was Lucretia Mott, a legendary local Quaker for whom the suburb of La Mott was named... There was a vicious fight for Philadelphia's moral soul during the run up to and aftermath, beyond, the Civil War between the Quakers and the more pro-South folks in Philly... For example Pennsylvania Hall was proudly erected as a major Philadelphia meeting hall in 1838... Just days later, during a major rally of prime abolitionists, like William Lloyd Garrison, an angry mob gathered outside and set fire to the building. Most escaped, including Garrison, but Philly fire officials merely stood by and watched the brand new building burn to the ground... As noted, after the Civil War, in 1870, Black activist and businessman O.V. Catto was gunned down attempting to register Black voters to vote Republican in the first election allowing them to vote following the 15th Amendment. Philly has been in the middle of this tension over the years.
Philadelphia toed the line but backed away from outright in-your-face segregation, except more subtly like the segregated cemeteries.
You don't know what your talking about when you deny the genteel sense of the Main Line and elsewhere in Philly. The old-money wealthy lifestyle of LI or Westchester or Southern CT is very different from old money Philadelphia and if you can't see it, I simply can't help you... Plus I don't know why you're so sensitive about this; it's as if I'm calling you some kind of racist and I'm not. I have no agenda here. I'm just telling you what I see and sense here in Philly in my 1.5+ decades living here. Philly is not Yankee territory like a Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago, ... it's just not.
First, I want to be clear that no offense was taken by your initial post. You certainly have a right your perspective and my apologies if I came off defensive.
But I do have some basic disagreements with how you've framed a couple of things. I'll certainly agree that Philly, and Pennsylvania more broadly, historically was part of the "Middle Colonies," which does make it distinct from "Yankee" New England. New Jersey and New York are similar in that regard. That being said, it's also very distinct from Southern states/former colonies, too. In fact, Pennsylvania arguably has a unique history that made its culture distinct from any other state, but that's a whole other conversation entirely.
Unfortunately, it was common practice in most of the country.
As for your take on how to characterize the Main Line, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just think it's important to recognize that while possessing some "gentility" (and I still believe that old school wealthy Yankees are very similar in that regard), the Main Line historically came to be with fundamentally different industry-derived wealth, religion, ethnicities, and politics, as compared to historically wealthy Southerners, that persist to this day.
I couldn't disagree with you more, and you totally miss the point.
Social segregation is an unfortunate part of American life everywhere. But actual legal or quasi-legal segregation is entirely different... Many modern states, for example try and distance themselves from their pro-Confederacy roots by claiming "border" status, like Maryland... But one test of mine is: did you bar African Americans from your state universities until the 1950s and 60s. If the answer is yes, in my mind your either a Confederacy or Confederacy leaning state, and Maryland meets that classification (add to this the fact that John Wilkes Booth is from Maryland and was more/less typical of the Southern sympathizing ways of the area at the time, coupled with such other aspects as a Robert E. Lee park just outside Baltimore and, well, you get the idea...). Philadelphia toed the line but backed away from outright in-your-face segregation, except more subtly like the segregated cemeteries.
You don't know what your talking about when you deny the genteel sense of the Main Line and elsewhere in Philly. The old-money wealthy lifestyle of LI or Westchester or Southern CT is very different from old money Philadelphia and if you can't see it, I simply can't help you... Plus I don't know why you're so sensitive about this; it's as if I'm calling you some kind of racist and I'm not. I have no agenda here. I'm just telling you what I see and sense here in Philly in my 1.5+ decades living here. Philly is not Yankee territory like a Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago, ... it's just not.
Since I moved here, I've seen and heard, directly for example, how much Philadelphia blue bloods relate more to Princeton than they do other Ivies -- some say, directly, that Princeton is more a Philly school than a NYC school even though it sits midway between the 2 cities (and I believe is in the NYC metropolitan area, ... but I could be wrong on that), ... even Penn, which sits within Philly borders... Princeton has historically been a Southern influenced school even though it sit in Yankee NJ. It has more of a stuffy genteel-ism that's simply different than the other Big 3 schools, Harvard and Yale... Those Princeton eating clubs is one example. When the Civil War broke out, there was definite split and tension on Princeton's campus (then formally the College of New Jersey) simply because so many Southern planters sent their sons there... It's an atmosphere that quietly appeals to Philly sensibilities... Nothing wrong with that and, again, I'm not saying Philadelphia is a Southern/Confederate city because it's is not/was not... But it leans that way on several levels I was not aware of until I moved here -- before then I figured Philly and New York were pretty much interchangeable in terms of atmosphere and mentality ... I just lumped them all into being "East Coast" cities... but clearly they are very, very different on that score...
... and to say Chicago is more southern than Philly simply is way off target; at least in my book.
Immigration changed all this, as Pennsylvania (and Maryland) received quite a bit from Ireland, Italy, Poland, Germany, etc in the great waves that came to our shores after the Civil War. Baltimore and DC are not regarded as southern anymore, nor is NOVA, and haven't been for some time. The deeply-entrenched old South received very little of this immigrant wave, and thus remained largely unchanged for decades...
U.S. 50 runs about 150 miles to Philadelphia's south; it passes through Washington, DC, on its way to its eastern end in New York City and Philadelphia.
U.S. 30 - the historic Lincoln Highway from here west (it's U.S. 1 between here and New York) - is the spine road of the Main Line and passes through Philadelphia's heart.
U.S. 40 passes through Wilmington's southern suburbs before entering New Jersey and running across one of its two southernmost counties before ending at Atlantic City. (Some towns in that part of NJ, by the way, have an awfully Southern look and feel.) Perhaps you meant that highway?
Immigration changed all this, as Pennsylvania (and Maryland) received quite a bit from Ireland, Italy, Poland, Germany, etc in the great waves that came to our shores after the Civil War. Baltimore and DC are not regarded as southern anymore, nor is NOVA, and haven't been for some time. The deeply-entrenched old South received very little of this immigrant wave, and thus remained largely unchanged for decades...
The immigrant argument need not apply. Otherwise, Louisiana and even East Texas shouldn't be regarded as Southern for that reason. Neither should Charleston considering its port city status made it receive many immigrants that other Southern cities didn't receive.
Also, the Germans and Irish have long histories in the South, especially the Upper South. Their strong presence in Baltimore is the same as their presence in Appalachian places like West Virginia and Kentucky. And come on, the Irish themselves play a HUGE role in Southern history. It's not as if Whites in the South are only non ethnic WASP types
For example Pennsylvania Hall was proudly erected as a major Philadelphia meeting hall in 1838... Just days later, during a major rally of prime abolitionists, like William Lloyd Garrison, an angry mob gathered outside and set fire to the building. Most escaped, including Garrison, but Philly fire officials merely stood by and watched the brand new building burn to the ground... As noted, after the Civil War, in 1870, Black activist and businessman O.V. Catto was gunned down attempting to register Black voters to vote Republican in the first election allowing them to vote following the 15th Amendment. Philly has been in the middle of this tension over the years.
The point I was trying to make earlier is that there is no such thing as Northern "purity." There are plenty of examples of outright defiance against abolitionism or race-based violence in the North, even well into Yankee territory.
Which ones? And are they located north or south of U.S. 50?
Some parts of South Jersey like Glassboro and Berlin. Also less developed areas in Chester County. They don't exactly feel like Alabama, but they have more southern influence than anywhere in Chicago IMO. U.S 50 is nowhere near Philly not sure if you meant U.S 30.
Last edited by Turnerbro; 07-22-2018 at 03:37 PM..
Oops. Mis-pasted something that was supposed to apply to the paragraph below about U.S. 30 and the Lincoln Highway.
My apologies. Yes, U.S. 50's eastern end is in OC, Md.
The funny thing is that now, neither US 40 nor US 50, the two transcontinental U.S. highways through the nation's midsection, reach the Pacific coast anymore. US 50 ends in Sacramento, shy of San Francisco; US 40 also once ended there, but I don't know where it ends now.
Some parts of South Jersey like Glassboro and Berlin. Also less developed areas in Chester County. They don't exactly feel like Alabama, but they have more southern influence than anywhere in Chicago IMO. U.S 50 is nowhere near Philly not sure if you meant U.S 30.
Can we define "Southern influence?" I read that term so much, yet no one can really explain what it means or how Southernism purportedly manifests itself in non-Southern areas.
Immigration changed all this, as Pennsylvania (and Maryland) received quite a bit from Ireland, Italy, Poland, Germany, etc in the great waves that came to our shores after the Civil War. Baltimore and DC are not regarded as southern anymore, nor is NOVA, and haven't been for some time. The deeply-entrenched old South received very little of this immigrant wave, and thus remained largely unchanged for decades...
Baltimore is still southern. I can't speak for DC.
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