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I think that because Baltimore historically had some enclaves of Italians, Greeks, Poles...which you didn’t historically see in other major southern cities (outside of New Orleans), people talk about it like the population is significant. If you look at the actual numbers they are tiny. Maybe at the time those Catholic, ethnic European immigrant groups were somewhat significant but compared to NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago or even other midwestern cities, the populations (at least currently) are insignificant.
IMO Baltimore is part of a North-South gradient that is common east of the Mississippi. If you look at it as a continuum that goes from heavy concentrations of Catholic/Orthodox Mainland Europeans on one side to WASPs on the other, you can see that starting from Northern cities like Boston the numbers of these populations begin to wane when you go to the Mid-Atlantic and drop off significantly when you enter the Deep South.
In that respect, Baltimore experiences the ethnic Whites that Philly has but to a smaller degree. However this same continuum exists further West. It's the same when you go from Pittsburgh to West Virginia. West Virginia has the same ethnic Whites as Pittsburgh but in smaller concentrations. And again the same thing happens when you go from say Cincinnati to Louisville. Or from Chicago to St. Louis.
Cities with similar latitudes as Baltimore located in border states have the same White ethnics as the former Union states above them. But they have smaller concentrations.
The thing is with states like Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri is that not only do they have the same ethnic White populations of their Northern brethren (like how Germans, Irish, and Italians moved to Louisville) but they also have native Black populations that are pre-Civil War. Indeed some peripheral areas of Maryland are just like peripheral areas of Kentucky in that rural Black populations reside therein compared to states like Illinois or Pennsylvania which they border. These two states in a way could be in opposite ends of the "Black belt" which separates them from their unquestionably Northern neighbors.
Baltimore historically is about as "ethnic" White (Catholic non WASP) as other cities that are below the Mason Dixon but not in the "official" South. Cities in northern parts of West Virginia for example have historically had lots of blue collar Italians. Louisville has been the same.
Idk why people treat Baltimore as some sort of exception in this regard. Even if we don't call Maryland "Southern", the other border states attracted Catholic non WASPs just the same. Louisville itself has a large Catholic population and history of attracting Catholic Europeans from mainland Europe just like Baltimore. And just like Baltimore you have some people from Louisville who swear up and down their city isn't Southern and never was. Border states all share this mentality and Baltimore need not even have a Bos- Wash presence for this to happen.
Also, from a Census perspective Philly and Boston are in the Northeast/North Atlantic while Maryland is in the Southeast/South Atlantic. Now if we consider Mid Atlantic a region then its borders fan include anything between New England and the Deep South (which is why some even include North Carolina as Mid Atlantic).
Mid Atlantic is honestly hard to define from a cultural standpoint anyway. You can argue the Delaware Valley has its own culture which can be called Mid Atlantic but elsewhere places like Baltimore/Maryland do have influences from the South that are easily seen.
No, it sounds like people are claiming that Baltimore thinks in northeastern just so they can argue that it's not. Like the northeast is some exclusive club that everyone is trying to get in to.
I'm telling you that Baltimore is a southern city. Baltimore isn't trying to be a northeastern city. I don't even hear people talk about the northeast around here anymore. It's always about ATL, Miami, NC and points south.
No, it sounds like people are claiming that Baltimore thinks in northeastern just so they can argue that it's not. Like the northeast is some exclusive club that everyone is trying to get in to.
I'm telling you that Baltimore is a southern city. Baltimore isn't trying to be a northeastern city. I don't even hear people talk about the northeast around here anymore. It's always about ATL, Miami, NC and points south.
I haven't lived in Baltimore, but I have visited several times, and tbh, Baltimore feels "southern" to me the same way St. Louis does, which is to say, only superficially so.
I wouldn't confuse either of those cities for, say, Mobile, Durham, Atlanta or even Richmond.
No, it sounds like people are claiming that Baltimore thinks in northeastern just so they can argue that it's not. Like the northeast is some exclusive club that everyone is trying to get in to.
I'm telling you that Baltimore is a southern city. Baltimore isn't trying to be a northeastern city. I don't even hear people talk about the northeast around here anymore. It's always about ATL, Miami, NC and points south.
Baltimore is not southern. Jesus!
And if people in Baltimore are talking about the south, it’s to move down here.
BTW this thread is about Chicago... and I don't see it listed there in none of these.
There are entire discussions related to whether Maryland is Northern vs. Southern. It's not as if there is a consensus. Just google "Is Maryland southern " and see how many threads pop up.
Besides, can you really say that Texas, which houses El Paso is even in the same region as South Carolina, which houses Charleston? Texas in and of itself isn't the best picture of a Southern state as it is.
But of course leave it to use city data users to bring up border states in a discussion about the South. It never fails. In any "is xyz Southern" discussion, somehow Maryland and Missouri (and even Kentucky to a smaller extent) will take like 10 pages of the same thread. Kind of like how Peter1948 manages to find every post of mine about Louisville.
I haven't lived in Baltimore, but I have visited several times, and tbh, Baltimore feels "southern" to me the same way St. Louis does, which is to say, only superficially so.
I wouldn't confuse either of those cities for, say, Mobile, Durham, Atlanta or even Richmond.
Honestly the biggest issue is that people will act as if NYC/NJ is the epitome of Northeastern and MS/AL is the epitome of the South. When in reality when comparing the Northeast to the South you should be using Massachusetts vs Alabama not NJ/NY. Because Massachusetts was comparably untouched by the Great Migration in the 20s and this almost totally lacks any southern characteristics. (Ex Jazz is totally not associated with Boston at all)
So is Baltimore more like Boston or Birmingham? There is a genuine argument it's closer to the latter.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Honestly the biggest issue is that people will act as if NYC/NJ is the epitome of Northeastern and MS/AL is the epitome of the South. When in reality when comparing the Northeast to the South you should be using Massachusetts vs Alabama not NJ/NY. Because Massachusetts was comparably untouched by the Great Migration in the 20s and this almost totally lacks any southern characteristics. (Ex Jazz is totally not associated with Boston at all)
So is Baltimore more like Boston or Birmingham? There is a genuine argument it's closer to the latter.
You guys do know and realize that nowadays we can associate sister or similar cities with each other from all parts of the country now right? Like Seattle, DC, Chicago, and Boston probably resemble each other more, while Baltimore, Birmingham, St. Louis, and Milwaukee resemble/ are more alike each other.
No, it sounds like people are claiming that Baltimore thinks in northeastern just so they can argue that it's not. Like the northeast is some exclusive club that everyone is trying to get in to.
I'm telling you that Baltimore is a southern city. Baltimore isn't trying to be a northeastern city. I don't even hear people talk about the northeast around here anymore. It's always about ATL, Miami, NC and points south.
I’m going to Baltimore next week to get a car inspection. Going to the fun talking to the locals!
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