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If I remember correctly, you live and/or work in Johnston County. Which is fine, but certainly has limitations of its own in regards to visiting Durham much (though 3 times makes me think you just don’t want to visit). But again, Wake County is the source for roughly twice the people visiting the Bulls or DPAC than come from Durham County. Not talking for work, strictly for entertainment purposes. North Raleigh/Cary/Apex is ground zero for the Durham/Raleigh connection, which can be missed in Hillsborough or Clayton.
As far as work, I’d say roughly a quarter of my department lives in Durham while working 10 miles from the Durham County line at basically ITB Raleigh. Another quarter probably hail from Johnston County. It’s true that when we have get togethers in Durham, it’s unlikely we’ll see many JoCo coworkers. And when we have it downtown Raleigh, Durhamites are the first to leave because of the drive. But that’s ok. Hoboken doesn’t have to visit Westchester much for them to be tied together, Manhattan visits both regardless
Long story short (too late!), the Triangle is cut-up in such a way that it doesn’t easily make apples-to-apples comparisons with other MSA’s. I’d have to drive 40 miles to get from Nashville out of its metro. I could live in the city of Raleigh and not be in it’s metro. That will skew any comparison. MSA data comparison is fine 95% of the time, but when it’s off it’s way off.
If Texas isn't in the South, as Texans on this site always proclaim, certainly no Texas cities could be included in this ranking. Not sure where they would be included (certainly not the North, the Midwest, the Mountain West, or the West. The Southwest...not really, as Houston is pretty much straight south of Minneapolis. Interesting. Does the state stand alone?
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Originally Posted by murksiderock
Lmao that's funny and true, ditto for Florida, probably even moreso according to this forum!
What gets argued about a lot on this forum is the Southern CULTURE, not the fact that Texas and Florida have sunbelt cities and are geographically in the South. They are Southern states -- they are in the Southern US. The cultural aspects that get argued about over and over here are a different topic.
I disagree on the Raleigh and Durham as one thing. I've lived here a year and have been to Durham three times. I think the difference in perception comes from different social circles and/or personal affinity for Durham...
Of course the two are economically linked, it's why they are one market and CSA. Durham definitely isn't an extension of Raleigh outside of that, the nature and character of the city and that side of The Triangle is very different, I don't know how one would conflate it as an extension of Rgh unless expressly talking about economic ties...
I also have found that many Triangle posters on here (not in out here in the real world, though), seem to underestimate the amount of people who don't cross sides. It was this way 7 years ago, when I worked on 751 in Durham and had a girlfriend there and spent more time there, and it remains that way today, I know/have known plenty of people from either side who live, work, and play all on the part of the metro they live on...
Durham is large enough and unique enough to be seen of it's own accord just like Fort Worth...
And the other part of this is that if you call the entire Triangle "Raleigh", you gotta keep that comparison constant with cities across the board. The Triangle has the high growth rates and typically booming economies characteristic of Sunbelt boomtowns, then what else? You can compare The Triangle to cities across the nation that have Triangle's population as an MSA, and when you allow for comparison of real lived attributes aside from statistics we nerd for, "Raleigh's" inclusion with said cities falls apart quickly. Pick a city---->Kansas City, Charlotte, Las Vegas, Pittsburgh, on and on and on. The Triangle would be the very last metro, overall, in that group of aspirational peers, when all factors of city stature is weighed....
Raleigh is Raleigh, Durham is Durham, and together they are The Triangle, one metro, one region. They are not the same city...
I don't think anyone is saying that Raleigh and Durham are "the same city"; but I don't think your perspective is one of someone who is very familiar with the dynamic as you've made it clear Raleigh is only a short-term place for you.
I grew up in Western Wake County in the 90s/early 2000s; mostly Apex/Cary after brief stint in N. Raleigh through about 2nd grade. Then attended college at UNC in Chapel Hill; had a brief stint living up in the mountains for about a year after graduation; and then back to Chapel Hill/Durham (moved to a few apartments in each until purchasing a home right on the Durham/Orange line.
When I drive from my house in CH to my parents' house in downtown Apex; I go through 4 counties in about 25 minutes; all are part of the same area local area where the focal-points of employment are RTP and the three universities; the focal-points for nightlife "city" entertainment is both downtown Raleigh AND downtown Durham; and the main suburban shopping/entertainment area is Southpoint.
If I remember correctly, you live and/or work in Johnston County. Which is fine, but certainly has limitations of its own in regards to visiting Durham much (though 3 times makes me think you just don’t want to visit). But again, Wake County is the source for roughly twice the people visiting the Bulls or DPAC than come from Durham County. Not talking for work, strictly for entertainment purposes. North Raleigh/Cary/Apex is ground zero for the Durham/Raleigh connection, which can be missed in Hillsborough or Clayton.
As far as work, I’d say roughly a quarter of my department lives in Durham while working 10 miles from the Durham County line at basically ITB Raleigh. Another quarter probably hail from Johnston County. It’s true that when we have get togethers in Durham, it’s unlikely we’ll see many JoCo coworkers. And when we have it downtown Raleigh, Durhamites are the first to leave because of the drive. But that’s ok. Hoboken doesn’t have to visit Westchester much for them to be tied together, Manhattan visits both regardless
Long story short (too late!), the Triangle is cut-up in such a way that it doesn’t easily make apples-to-apples comparisons with other MSA’s. I’d have to drive 40 miles to get from Nashville out of its metro. I could live in the city of Raleigh and not be in it’s metro. That will skew any comparison. MSA data comparison is fine 95% of the time, but when it’s off it’s way off.
Hahaha you tried to be slick, I worked in Johnston until February but never lived there, I live in Garner and probably live closer to DT Rgh than you; certainly live closer to downtown than most people in the city...
Johnston has some bearing on the dynamics as it's part if whatever definition of Triangle is used, and is more "Rgh" than these outer areas that are constantly conflated, particularly once you hit Clayton in north Johnston...
So no, I wasn't using Johnston as my litmus test, but I also don't regard it as insignificant and if other areas outside the city of Rgh can be used as anecdotal support, all areas are game. And Durm is not a destination from JoCo...
But as mentioned, I was specifically talking people within the Rgh sphere of The Triangle overall, and more than anything I think our social circles color our experiences more. I'm in NE Rgh now, way up Capital, and I know a guy who commutes from Greensboro but that doesn't mean Greensboro is "Raleigh". I don't personally know anyone from Durm here, though it wouldn't exactly be a revelation as 540 is right here...
I've specifically asked people how often they go to Durm, and more answers trend hardly ever, than often...
You trip me out how you always bring up the 1% fraction of Raleighites who live over the county line. Isn't a great supporting argument, as it isn't anywhere near a representation of most Raleighites...
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Originally Posted by TarHeelNick
I don't think anyone is saying that Raleigh and Durham are "the same city"; but I don't think your perspective is one of someone who is very familiar with the dynamic as you've made it clear Raleigh is only a short-term place for you.
I grew up in Western Wake County in the 90s/early 2000s; mostly Apex/Cary after brief stint in N. Raleigh through about 2nd grade. Then attended college at UNC in Chapel Hill; had a brief stint living up in the mountains for about a year after graduation; and then back to Chapel Hill/Durham (moved to a few apartments in each until purchasing a home right on the Durham/Orange line.
When I drive from my house in CH to my parents' house in downtown Apex; I go through 4 counties in about 25 minutes; all are part of the same area local area where the focal-points of employment are RTP and the three universities; the focal-points for nightlife "city" entertainment is both downtown Raleigh AND downtown Durham; and the main suburban shopping/entertainment area is Southpoint.
I get this. My only pushback would be Crabtree is equally a suburban entertainment area and has the same appeal Southpoint has, so unless I specifically wanted a change of pace, there's no need to go to Southpoint...
Point taken on travel within the region, but the reality is there is frequent travel throughout the area on into Fayetteville. I lived in Fayetteville when I worked in Durham and commuted (then subsequently got a transfer to Charlotte), and I know a woman currently who teaches at Methodist in Fayetteville, but lives in Cary. Travel around and within the entire market is pretty widespread and for me, isn't a strong enough factor to claim the entire Triangle as "Raleigh", which I believe you haven't or aren't doing, but a number of local posters have done so religiously...
Durham functions as an extension of Raleigh in many regards. Wake County residents remain the main driver of downtown Durham even over Durham County residents. You can separate out the Gordian knot that is the Triangle in such a way, but you’d be left with a bunch of cut-up rope with little value.
So Durham is the Triangle's actual urban center? That's the conclusion one might come to after reading this.
But as it regards this tiering, I'm inclined to list the Triangle as a whole, in which case it would belong in Tier II, and to list Raleigh and Durham/Chapel Hill separately. Raleigh would be Tier III and Durham Tier IV.
So Durham is the Triangle's actual urban center? That's the conclusion one might come to after reading this.
No, Wake County still visits downtown Raleigh more than downtown Durham. But by about a 2-1 ratio they visit DPAC/DBAP more than Durhamites. Basically Wake County is serviced by two downtowns.
Hahaha you tried to be slick, I worked in Johnston until February but never lived there, I live in Garner and probably live closer to DT Rgh than you; certainly live closer to downtown than most people in the city...
Johnston has some bearing on the dynamics as it's part if whatever definition of Triangle is used, and is more "Rgh" than these outer areas that are constantly conflated, particularly once you hit Clayton in north Johnston...
So no, I wasn't using Johnston as my litmus test, but I also don't regard it as insignificant and if other areas outside the city of Rgh can be used as anecdotal support, all areas are game. And Durm is not a destination from JoCo...
But as mentioned, I was specifically talking people within the Rgh sphere of The Triangle overall, and more than anything I think our social circles color our experiences more. I'm in NE Rgh now, way up Capital, and I know a guy who commutes from Greensboro but that doesn't mean Greensboro is "Raleigh". I don't personally know anyone from Durm here, though it wouldn't exactly be a revelation as 540 is right here...
I've specifically asked people how often they go to Durm, and more answers trend hardly ever, than often...
You trip me out how you always bring up the 1% fraction of Raleighites who live over the county line. Isn't a great supporting argument, as it isn't anywhere near a representation of most Raleighites...
I wasn’t trying to be slick. My point was a Garner-to-JoCo axis wouldn’t place Durham much on your radar.
But again, the larger point is it isn’t about your personal viewpoint. Facts are facts. Wake County residents go to Durham a lot, for work and play. If you live in North Raleigh (even out towards Capital) and you don’t know people who work at the Park, I can’t help you. Traffic on 540 in the morning when I merge from Falls tells me more.
If you are looking at city limit data between Richmond and Jacksonville, one would note that in one instance the city absorbed the county and in the other the city left the county and the stats are not readily compatible on face value. It’s no different here. More people commute between Wake and Durham than any other two counties in the state. Wake County is where most people who go to see Hamilton live. These are facts. There are people that never leave Brooklyn to go to Manhattan, but the subways still run because some people do.
What gets argued about a lot on this forum is the Southern CULTURE, not the fact that Texas and Florida have sunbelt cities and are geographically in the South. They are Southern states -- they are in the Southern US. The cultural aspects that get argued about over and over here are a different topic.
This. I actually typed out almost the same thing and then decided, "nah.. not worth it." Haha.
No, Wake County still visits downtown Raleigh more than downtown Durham. But by about a 2-1 ratio they visit DPAC/DBAP more than Durhamites. Basically Wake County is serviced by two downtowns.
How often do Durhamites visit downtown Raleigh?
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