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This is actually a stretch, during college i bartended at several bars in Chicago, and most bars close at 2am, with last call somewhere around 140am. Most of the bars along Clark in Lakeview (wrigleyville) are 2am, I can think of 2 bars on Lincoln near Depaul that are 4am, most of the Wickerpark/Bucktown bars are 2am, Some of the Bars near Clark/Division are 4am.
Your making sound like your average bar in Chicago is 4am, which is NOT the case.
I was just in Chicago a month ago, stayed at Hotel Indigo, and the bars near Clark and Division all stayed open until 5am.
You know this thread is over? She chose Chicago. She's looking for a place right now in Chicago.SF is a cool city no doubt but Chicago has so much more and it's breathtaking and it clearly is the better "city".
What makes a a "better" city when you have such close competitors is really a difficult determination to make, its purely in the eyes of each and every person.
Well, I was responding to someone who claimed that the Bay Area's suburbs were overwhelmingly "Lily White". And it turns out that this is far more true of Chicagoland.
Outside of Cook County, Its not diverse at all compared to the Bay Area. And not just as far as race, but also as far as foreign born residents and as far as the number of wealthy and highly educated minorities spread out over the entire region.
The Bay isn't like most older cities that are built around a single urban core, it's an amalgamation of 6 different, totally separate metropolitan areas. You said it yourself that the Bay has 3 major cities (SF, SJ, Oakland), which does a lot to spread your population all over the place (Peninsula, East Bay, South Bay). Another difference between the Bay and Chicagoland is that the majority of jobs in the Bay are located in the suburbs like Palo Alto and Cupertino, not the core cities. SF's major industry is tourism, so it doesn't perform the same function that the City of Chicago does within its respective region. That's why the suburbs are more diverse compared to other cities like NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia. In fact, many Bay Area suburbs are more diverse than the actual City of SF itself is.
Chicago would still have over 9 million people, regardless of whether we're talking MSA or CSA classification, whereas SF drops down to a measly 4 million when the rest of the Bay isn't included.
Also, let's not kid ourselves here, the Bay Area's "minorities" aren't exactly of the disadvantaged variety compared to Chicago's. The Bay is a destination for highly educated people from East Asia and South Asia, while Chicago is a magnet for all peoples looking for the American dream.
Last edited by EastSideMKE; 06-05-2010 at 09:08 AM..
The Bay isn't like most older cities that are built around a single urban core, it's an amalgamation of 6 different, totally separate metropolitan areas. You said it yourself that the Bay has 3 major cities (SF, SJ, Oakland), which does a lot to spread your population all over the place (Peninsula, East Bay, South Bay). Another difference between the Bay and Chicagoland is that the majority of jobs in the Bay are located in the suburbs like Palo Alto and Cupertino, not the core cities. SF's major industry is tourism, so it doesn't perform the same function that the City of Chicago does within its respective region.
Chicago would still have over 9 million people, regardless of whether we're talking MSA or CSA classification, whereas SF drops down to a measly 4 million when the rest of the Bay isn't included.
Also, let's not kid ourselves here, the Bay Area's "minorities" aren't exactly of the disadvantaged variety compared to Chicago's. The Bay is a destination for highly educated people from East Asia and South Asia, while Chicago is a magnet for all peoples looking for the American dream.
This is actually a stretch, during college i bartended at several bars in Chicago, and most bars close at 2am, with last call somewhere around 140am. Most of the bars along Clark in Lakeview (wrigleyville) are 2am, I can think of 2 bars on Lincoln near Depaul that are 4am, most of the Wickerpark/Bucktown bars are 2am, Some of the Bars near Clark/Division are 4am.
Your making sound like your average bar in Chicago is 4am, which is NOT the case.
I don't really go out in Lincoln Park ...but I know there are bars there open that late The bars and clubs I go to on the weekend were generally always 4-5am and if one I was at closed, there would always be something else that was open later hours. If a DJ is there that night, it is going to be open late...Even ****ty places like South Loop Club were open until 5...see for yourself South Loop Club - South Loop - Chicago, IL
Maybe you have different experience but pretty much everybody I know there stays out very late on the weekend and it isn't hard to find.
The rare place I went out in Wrigleyville is Smart Bar, and I know that is also open late
Another difference between the Bay and Chicagoland is that the majority of jobs in the Bay are located in the suburbs like Palo Alto and Cupertino, not the core cities.
Chicago proper is NOT where the majority of people in Chicagoland work-most of them work in suburbs, just like every other Metro Area, no principal city accounts for 50.1%+ of all jobs.
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SF's major industry is tourism, so it doesn't perform the same function that the City of Chicago does within its respective region.
San Francisco is the region's financial center, the region's media center, the region's retail hub, the region's cultural and entertainment heart and so on.
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Chicago would still have over 9 million people, regardless of whether we're talking MSA or CSA classification, whereas SF drops down to a measly 4 million when the rest of the Bay isn't included.
Whether at CSA or MSA level, SF is more diverse than Chicago.
Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI MSA
Total Population, 2008: 9,568,532
Non Hispanic White 5,353,766...55.9%
Black 1,655,199...17.2%
Native American 11,108...0.01%
Asian 501,231...5.2%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 1,683...0.008%
Other Race 30,445...0.03%
Multiracial 111,367...1.1%
Hispanic 1,903,733...19.8% Foreign Born Populaion 1,689,617...17.6%
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA
Total Population, 2008: 4,274,531
Non Hispanic White 1,932,923...45.2%
Black 352,026...8.2%
Native American 8,918...0.2%
Asian 933,635...21.8%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 27,105...0.6%
Other Race 19,808...0.4%
Multiracial 127,332...2.9%
Hispanic 872,784...20.4% Foreign Born Population 1,258,274...29.4%
Its so funny that some are actually arguing as if there's a different perspective that actually makes Chicago more diverse. LOL
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Also, let's not kid ourselves here, the Bay Area's "minorities" aren't exactly of the disadvantaged variety compared to Chicago's.
Well, what I suspect is that many people out there think its odd for there to be so many rich colored folks-who are a dime a dozen in the Bay Area-I thought it was like that everywhere-guess not.
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The Bay is a destination for highly educated people from East Asia and South Asia
Well, the Bay Area also has more wealthy Hispanic households as well as more college educated Hispanics-despite have less Hispanics overall.
Hispanic Households Earning $100,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 92,076
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 67,626
Hispanic Households Earning $200,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 15,625
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 7,186
Hispanics Age 25+ with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 135,075
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 117,858
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Chicago is a magnet for all peoples looking for the American dream.
But its apparent that more immigrants actually attain the American Dream in the Bay Area.
Foreign Born Individuals who earn $75,000+ Annually, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 348,273
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 144,824
Foreign Born Residents with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 704,010
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 399,333
Chicago proper is NOT where the majority of people in Chicagoland work-most of them work in suburbs, just like every other Metro Area, no principal city accounts for 50.1%+ of all jobs.
San Francisco is the region's financial center, the region's media center, the region's retail hub, the region's cultural and entertainment heart and so on.
Whether at CSA or MSA level, SF is more diverse than Chicago.
Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI MSA
Total Population, 2008: 9,568,532
Non Hispanic White 5,353,766...55.9%
Black 1,655,199...17.2%
Native American 11,108...0.01%
Asian 501,231...5.2%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 1,683...0.008%
Other Race 30,445...0.03%
Multiracial 111,367...1.1%
Hispanic 1,903,733...19.8% Foreign Born Populaion 1,689,617...17.6%
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA
Total Population, 2008: 4,274,531
Non Hispanic White 1,932,923...45.2%
Black 352,026...8.2%
Native American 8,918...0.2%
Asian 933,635...21.8%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 27,105...0.6%
Other Race 19,808...0.4%
Multiracial 127,332...2.9%
Hispanic 872,784...20.4% Foreign Born Population 1,258,274...29.4%
Its so funny that some are actually arguing as if there's a different perspective that actually makes Chicago more diverse. LOL
Well, what I suspect is that many people out there think its odd for there to be so many rich colored folks-who are a dime a dozen in the Bay Area-I thought it was like that everywhere-guess not.
Well, the Bay Area also has more wealthy Hispanic households as well as more college educated Hispanics-despite have less Hispanics overall.
Hispanic Households Earning $100,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 92,076
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 67,626
Hispanic Households Earning $200,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 15,625
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 7,186
Hispanics Age 25+ with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 135,075
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 117,858
But its apparent that more immigrants actually attain the American Dream in the Bay Area.
Foreign Born Individuals who earn $75,000+ Annually, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 348,273
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 144,824
Foreign Born Residents with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 704,010
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 399,333
I don't know why we're still debating this topic?
Wow, you went to a lot of trouble here, didn't you? I guess we're still debating because some people evidently like to have the last word.
Chicago proper is NOT where the majority of people in Chicagoland work-most of them work in suburbs, just like every other Metro Area, no principal city accounts for 50.1%+ of all jobs.
We seem to be having two completely different conversations. I thought we were specifically discussing where wealthy and highly educated minorities were concentrated? You said they can be found all over the Bay, I said they were concentrated in Chicago.
San Francisco is the region's financial center, the region's media center, the region's retail hub, the region's cultural and entertainment heart and so on.
But SF's not the major employment center for the Bay Area the way Chicago is for Chicagoland. Loop is 2nd to Midtown Manhattan for the highest concentration of jobs.
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Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Whether at CSA or MSA level, SF is more diverse than Chicago.
Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI MSA
Total Population, 2008: 9,568,532
Non Hispanic White 5,353,766...55.9%
Black 1,655,199...17.2%
Native American 11,108...0.01%
Asian 501,231...5.2%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 1,683...0.008%
Other Race 30,445...0.03%
Multiracial 111,367...1.1%
Hispanic 1,903,733...19.8% Foreign Born Populaion 1,689,617...17.6%
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA MSA
Total Population, 2008: 4,274,531
Non Hispanic White 1,932,923...45.2%
Black 352,026...8.2%
Native American 8,918...0.2%
Asian 933,635...21.8%
Native Hawaiian/ Pac. Islander 27,105...0.6%
Other Race 19,808...0.4%
Multiracial 127,332...2.9%
Hispanic 872,784...20.4% Foreign Born Population 1,258,274...29.4%
Its so funny that some are actually arguing as if there's a different perspective that actually makes Chicago more diverse. LOL
Asians are totally overrepresented in a handful of cities like Honolulu, SJ, and SF, and, as a result, are underrepresented almost everywhere else. No other ethnic group in the country has relegated itself to so few places.
The New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA Combined Statistical Area is only 8.4% Asian and is 62.8% white, yet I have never heard NYC accused of being "lily white" have you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Well, what I suspect is that many people out there think its odd for there to be so many rich colored folks-who are a dime a dozen in the Bay Area-I thought it was like that everywhere-guess not.
Riiiight. Because you haven't ever spent any time away from the Bay.
Even in Brazil, where you supposedly spend half of your time, the wealthy are more likely to look like this:
While the poor are more likely to look like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
Well, the Bay Area also has more wealthy Hispanic households as well as more college educated Hispanics-despite have less Hispanics overall.
Hispanic Households Earning $100,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 92,076
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 67,626
Hispanic Households Earning $200,000+, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 15,625
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 7,186
Hispanics Age 25+ with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 135,075
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 117,858
That's because the Bay is home to many 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. generation Hispanics that have lived in the area since it was part of Mexico and Spain. You'll run across many of these same people in states like Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Texas, and New Mexico too, they refer to themselves as Chicanos. Those people are not at all the the same as the 1st generation Mexican and Central Americans who are immigrating to cities like Chicago, LA, and Houston.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
But its apparent that more immigrants actually attain the American Dream in the Bay Area.
Foreign Born Individuals who earn $75,000+ Annually, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 348,273
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 144,824
Foreign Born Residents with a Bachelor Degree or Higher, 2008
San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland 704,010
Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City 399,333
Only because companies like Google, Adobe, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, Cisco, etc. sponsor visas for people who are already highly educated and ready to work. That sounds like a great American dream for some college educated, upper class Punjabi guy, but what about the American dream for poor immigrants?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair
I don't know why we're still debating this topic?
It's called being cynical. You know the way things really are, but as long as you can still convince some poor schmoe to believe otherwise, you're going to keep at it.
But SF's not the major employment center for the Bay Area the way Chicago is for Chicagoland. Loop is 2nd to Midtown Manhattan for the highest concentration of jobs.
But even then, Chicago proper pales in comparison to the suburbs as the place of employment. The Suburbs are the overwhelming majority-not the city.
Just like New York and everywhere else.
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Asians are totally overrepresented in a handful of cities like Honolulu, SJ, and SF, and, as a result, are underrepresented almost everywhere else. No other ethnic group in the country has relegated itself to so few places.
Well, did you notice that the SF MSA also has a higher proportion of Hispanics than the Chicago MSA.
Hispanic Population, 2008
San Francisco MSA 20.4%
Chicago MSA 19.8%
As well as a higher proportion of every group except Whites and Blacks.
In other words, for the 10th time, SF is more diverse.
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The New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA Combined Statistical Area is only 8.4% Asian and is 62.8% white, yet I have never heard NYC accused of being "lily white" have you?
It was your fellow Chicago fan that brought the term "lily white" into this conversation when he accused the Bay Area suburbs of being primarly just that...and that has lie has been squashed soundly, in fact its the Chicago counties that better fit that description.
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Riiiight. Because you haven't ever spent any time away from the Bay.
Even in Brazil, where you supposedly spend half of your time
Why are trying to get personal? That is dumb as hell.
I guess its because you can't find stats to back up anything you say.
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That's because the Bay is home to many 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. generation Hispanics that have lived in the area since it was part of Mexico and Spain. You'll run across many of these same people in states like Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Texas, and New Mexico too, they refer to themselves as Chicanos. Those people are not at all the the same as the 1st generation Mexican and Central Americans who are immigrating to cities like Chicago, LA, and Houston.
Only because companies like Google, Adobe, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, Cisco, etc. sponsor visas for people who are already highly educated and ready to work. That sounds like a great American dream for some college educated, upper class Punjabi guy
In other words, life is not fair and all metro areas are NOT created equal.
I know.
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]It's called being cynical. You know the way things really are, but as long as you can still convince some poor schmoe to believe otherwise, you're going to keep at it.
Yes, because instead of admitting the obvious even in the face of irrefutable facts, its better to come up with a bunch of far-reaching excuses and make try to make it personal.
Good job buddy.
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