Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Wow. Talk about pressure on kids. Glad my D was not in your school district! Seriously, what are these folks thinking? Does no one have a background in adolescent development? Are admissions that competitive in your state?
My D went to a competitive HS in the Boston area, and I don't recall any of these pressures so early on.
Yeah, it's kind of intense. The juniors are meeting with colleges now (as in this month). That's where my daughter will be this time, next year. When I was in school, I don't think I did that until the middle of my senior year.
I don't know if things just changed that much since I was in school or if it's just the school, the school district, or even our state. It might be worth noting that where I live is full of high-achieving type A personalities with six figure salaries (I am not even close to that, haha). I really don't know how competitive admissions are in my state overall. I know how it is at individual colleges my daughter says she's interested in. I am not sure how to even figure out a number for the whole state.
I really am just trying to do what I think I should be doing based on what the school is telling me and my daughter.
Yeah, it's kind of intense. The juniors are meeting with colleges now (as in this month). That's where my daughter will be this time, next year. When I was in school, I don't think I did that until the middle of my senior year.
I don't know if things just changed that much since I was in school or if it's just the school, the school district, or even our state. It might be worth noting that where I live is full of high-achieving type A personalities with six figure salaries (I am not even close to that, haha). I really don't know how competitive admissions are in my state overall. I know how it is at individual colleges my daughter says she's interested in. I am not sure how to even figure out a number for the whole state.
I really am just trying to do what I think I should be doing based on what the school is telling me and my daughter.
I doubt that. I'm positive I'm older than you, my kids being in their 30s and me being older when they were born. Anyway, I remember being called into the guidance counselor's office in the late fall of my senior year, that would be the fall of 1966 to be asked why I hadn't applied to any colleges yet. I got on with it and by December had been accepted where I wanted to go.
I doubt that. I'm positive I'm older than you, my kids being in their 30s and me being older when they were born. Anyway, I remember being called into the guidance counselor's office in the late fall of my senior year, that would be the fall of 1966 to be asked why I hadn't applied to any colleges yet. I got on with it and by December had been accepted where I wanted to go.
You may be older, but my memory is probably worse. I just remember it being my senior year because I had to go to the fair after my after school job (which I only had in my senior year). It could have very well been earlier than mid year. It's funny, I remember what I wore to the college night that night and I even remember going in my dad's car. But I really can't remember the month. I just assumed it was sometime mid year because the outfit I wore was a wool skirt and jacket. That skirt and jacket were my nicest outfit (it was designer... a hand me down.. but I thought it was impressive). Maybe I overdressed for September. Still, my main point was I wasn't being told by the school to start picking majors and thinking about which colleges I wanted to go to in the beginning of my junior year like they are doing at my daughter's school.
Now, I would be lying if I didn't say I want her to take as many AP classes as she can. She can get college credit for them/be in college less time. .... I joke that I am too rich for my daughter to get aid, but too poor to pay for college. The point is, we won't get need based aid and I am trying to avoid her being saddled down with debt after school. So careful planning is a must.
Anyway, at this point, the original topic is dead. She can't do anything. She just needs to plan the next year.
I wouldn't get too excited about the "in college less time" idea. If she does a STEM major, AP classes are unlikely to avoid much, if any time. They may help avoid some of the gen ed classes, but STEM programs are sequenced and AP classes don't provide that sequence for STEM majors. I won't say "never" because there are always exceptions, but don't make plans on cutting a year from college. Heck many STEM programs are so intense that 5 years is becoming pretty common in them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D
Yeah, it's kind of intense. The juniors are meeting with colleges now (as in this month). That's where my daughter will be this time, next year. When I was in school, I don't think I did that until the middle of my senior year.
I don't know if things just changed that much since I was in school or if it's just the school, the school district, or even our state. It might be worth noting that where I live is full of high-achieving type A personalities with six figure salaries (I am not even close to that, haha). I really don't know how competitive admissions are in my state overall. I know how it is at individual colleges my daughter says she's interested in. I am not sure how to even figure out a number for the whole state.
I really am just trying to do what I think I should be doing based on what the school is telling me and my daughter.
This is very much the way my kid's high school was. They had to lay out their basic courses and AP sequence in spring of 8th grade year when they filled out their high school schedule. And like your school, once they were in the path, there wasn't much flexibility to change courses mid year. In fact both of mine had schedules so inflexible they had to take a couple of courses on line on their own time outside school hours because the school couldn't hold enough sessions for everyone's schedule.
It's very typical to start visiting colleges late in sophomore year or between sophomore and junior year as well as between junior and senior years. Colleges start accepting applications in August/September of senior year so kids who wait until senior year to start looking are way behind the power curve. Some colleges (won't say all) even look at the time the application was submitted as a tie breaker and for priority in class schedule, dorms, etc.
Everything you've said seems pretty similar to our experience with our kids in a college focused school system with competitive kids. They even had kids as young as 6th grade taking the ACT just for the practice.
Exactly WRONG... Running Start is NOT a HS > College equivalency (as is AP & IB).
Running Start you are a college student(with a college transcript) You are not a HS student. You will not have or need a HS transcript (unless you desire one). You can get a HS diploma from the college if you think you want / need one.
The point is... If your kid is doing AP. why not forget HS and just take a real college course?
Most states allow that, Just enroll and pay tuition. (if you can qualify for college)
What year do those enrolled in the RS program start taking these classes? Jr. year?
Same year the majority of HS students start taking AP classes? But they don't go off campus to take said AP classes?
Quote:
I have been in 12 states in the last 3 weeks interfacing with colleges and HS. It is not a foreign concept to skip HS and attend college. (or at least skip part of HS). Your 'high achieving' HS student is not getting benefit from additional HS courses, and they likely had enough HS credits to graduate at the end of Jr Yr.
So you are paid to advocate this RS program?
News Flash: It is a foreign concept to "skip HS and attend college" for the majority. Entering a college as a 16 year old junior isn't exactly skipping college, BTW.
Quote:
Running Start is applicable in (3) states, but all you have to do is qualify for admissions and PAY tuition and go to college (early). Many RS students go international or out-of-state and still enter as full Jrs. They were NOT taking 'equivalency' college courses while in HS. They were attending college and they have transcripts (from college) to prove it / transfer.
Wait - so you have to PAY? I thought it was free?
Many RS students "go international or out of state". For what?
Quote:
As mentioned... Do your homework and get receiving U to accept courses from your 'attending' college BEFORE enrolling.
Why take AP when you can attend 'real' college instead? I dunno
As mentioned...not all states have this program and not all colleges accept AP or CC credits (the apparent equivalent of credits earned via this RS program).
You should take this to the WA forum and the other two states that have this program.
And keep it there because this isn't reality for the majority.
Glad it worked out for you and the rest who live in WA...
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,734 posts, read 58,090,525 times
Reputation: 46215
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear99
It's interesting that one of the pioneers of gifted education, Julian Stanley (JHU - look his work up) originally thought, and pioneered, radical acceleration, much like Rabbit seems to be advocating. The kids seemed to do fine at the time, but when interviewed much later, were not so hot on the idea. So there's your answer. ...
It seems that in the long run, it matters more to have a relatively normal HS experience, with all that entails, than to have a head start on college, at least to these kids. ....
Sure 'skipping HS' is not for everyone, but it has worked excellent for many, and is a great alternative to "gifted" (of which mine, and most I know were not). For the extreme efforts of taking AP and IB, I see little point when you could instead get a REAL college transcript and forget the non-trivial social burdens of HS culture and teaching style ('follow instruction'), when your true intent is EDUCATION.
WA has 29 yrs of history doing an official College instead of HS (as mentioned I have had 3 bosses from that era, they and all I know are well adapted to life and community) It is really quite amazing to know and realize the benefit to the community of the citizens who have done this. (Several national community service awards held by RS grads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info
...
Wait - so you have to PAY? I thought it was free? RS does not have to pay, I mentioned... if you DO NOT have RS, you can certainly PAY tuition and get a real college education (and transcript) rather than put all the work and hoops into a 'potential transfer' AP or IB course.
Many RS students "go international or out of state". For what?
University (with accepted Transfer Credits from RS)
As mentioned...not all states have this program and not all colleges accept AP or CC credits (the apparent equivalent of credits earned via this RS program). RS can also utilize U's, + you should ALWAYS have a transfer contract when taking courses you intend to transfer!, there is no 'equivalency', RS you ARE a college student, with a college transcript, as is 'self pay' college instead of HS
The point is... If your kid is doing AP. why not forget HS and just take a real college course?
Most states allow that, Just enroll and pay tuition. (if you can qualify for college)
As one who needs to hire and employ HS, College Stem grads, and homeschooled kids to keep companies viable, I have a good cross section of applicants. I can't stress the absolute differences in capability and incentive of those who did NOT hang around a traditional HS and 'follow-instructions' for 12 yrs.
I'm all for 'old-school' apprenticeships / vocational and responsible EDU starting about age 12 -14. Kids can do amazing things when 'set-free' from traditional USA EDU environments. Your company or business will benefit from innovation and responsibility and incentive of an employee who was able to enjoy and apply learnings.
Don't sequester your High Achiever (or 'gifted') student to an AP / IB if they are capable and willing to achieve something of significantly higher value.
YMMV
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 09-06-2019 at 09:26 AM..
Sure 'skipping HS' is not for everyone, but it has worked excellent for many, and is a great alternative to "gifted" (of which mine, and most I know were not). For the extreme efforts of taking AP and IB, I see little point when you could instead get a REAL college transcript and forget the non-trivial social burdens of HS culture and teaching style ('follow instruction'), when your true intent is EDUCATION.
Now I see where you're coming from. Is your disdain for the HS experience based on your personal experience growing up, observing your own kids, or what?
Too bad you substitute your experience, with its narrow sample set, for the experience of professional educators who look, shall we say, a bit more broadly.
I wouldn't get too excited about the "in college less time" idea. If she does a STEM major, AP classes are unlikely to avoid much, if any time. They may help avoid some of the gen ed classes, but STEM programs are sequenced and AP classes don't provide that sequence for STEM majors. I won't say "never" because there are always exceptions, but don't make plans on cutting a year from college. Heck many STEM programs are so intense that 5 years is becoming pretty common in them.
This is very much the way my kid's high school was. They had to lay out their basic courses and AP sequence in spring of 8th grade year when they filled out their high school schedule. And like your school, once they were in the path, there wasn't much flexibility to change courses mid year. In fact both of mine had schedules so inflexible they had to take a couple of courses on line on their own time outside school hours because the school couldn't hold enough sessions for everyone's schedule.
It's very typical to start visiting colleges late in sophomore year or between sophomore and junior year as well as between junior and senior years. Colleges start accepting applications in August/September of senior year so kids who wait until senior year to start looking are way behind the power curve. Some colleges (won't say all) even look at the time the application was submitted as a tie breaker and for priority in class schedule, dorms, etc.
Everything you've said seems pretty similar to our experience with our kids in a college focused school system with competitive kids. They even had kids as young as 6th grade taking the ACT just for the practice.
Agree with the first paragraph.
Here is the transition information for my kids' HS:https://moh.bvsd.org/About/Pages/Tra...gh-School.aspx
It hasn't changed all that much since my oldest started there in 1998. Of course you have to give some indication of courses you are going to take in 9th grade, freshman year, whatever you want to call it, so the school can plan. No one asked about plans to take AP classes.
Of course it would be unusual to change courses in mid-year, although the year had just started when the OP first posted. Like many a parent, including me at some points in my kids' educational careers, OP has excuses for why her daughter didn't get recommended for this honors class. Sometimes we parents are right and sometimes we're not. Sometimes the teachers are up against pressures from their own administration keeping them from being as flexible as they might like to be.
I'm rather surprised your kids' school wouldn't schedule enough sections of a popular class. I never heard of that in my kids' school or even my own back in the 60s. (Yeah, I'm old.) In fact, my kids' school usually went out of their way to try to get kids into classes they wanted, like moving around classes that everyone took like Language Arts to get them in some elective that only had a few sections, etc.
I would like to see some documentation for: "Some colleges (won't say all) even look at the time the application was submitted as a tie breaker and for priority in class schedule, dorms, etc." Generally, my experience was at both my college and my kids' colleges (3 undergrad total) than once in everyone was on equal footing for such things as the underlined though I'd like to know what is included in "etc".
As far as 6th graders taking the ACT, that's not something you can just choose to do. You have to be "invited" as one of mine was through this program: https://www.centerforbrightkids.org/wats.php
It's interesting that one of the pioneers of gifted education, Julian Stanley (JHU - look his work up) originally thought, and pioneered, radical acceleration, much like Rabbit seems to be advocating. The kids seemed to do fine at the time, but when interviewed much later, were not so hot on the idea. So there's your answer. Look up the research if you don't believe me.
It seems that in the long run, it matters more to have a relatively normal HS experience, with all that entails, than to have a head start on college, at least to these kids. Their HS experience was split - they had two sets of friends and peers, their social ones, age appropriate, and their educational ones, older and more mature. And note that there's a huge difference between a 16 year old and a 18 or 19 year old.
This is the point I was trying to make with my post. Our state has their version of this program, which we considered, and I am so glad we didn't do it. I have two kids at uni now and it would have been a disaster to push ahead early, but for different reasons for each of them.
Kid #1 - Definitely a gifted student and not only that, she really knew how to take notes, study and was a great test taker. Her average grade for all 4 years of high school was 98% and this was a college prep private school. She was in all honors or AP classes and won student of the year and every major award her senior year. So why not push her to dual enroll? Because she's an introvert and socially she was not ready for a college campus. No amount of money saved would have made it OK to send her to college early. She is confident she will get into medical school. I am not sure that would be the case otherwise.
Kid #2 - This one was the complete opposite. He was very with it socially, but very average in school (by choice). He did eventually get it together and was an honors graduate and captain for 3 Varsity sports teams. He is a senior at uni now and has had an internship every summer in his field. He's going to take 5 years to get his engineering degree, so he has one more summer to go. His engineering employer from this summer was so impressed they have already sent him a contract for next summer. We were told it is extremely rare for them to do this as they have loads of great applicants every year. All that to say I am 100% confident he would not be in this good position if he had done dual enrollment. He needed all those high school years to mature and turn into the excellent communicator and student that he is now.
It is only now we clearly see how important it was for them to stay on a high school track. Not only from an academic standpoint, but a social one. Who wants to be two years younger than your classmates/friends turning 21? Talk about isolating. Either that or encouraging of underage drinking.
Of course it would be unusual to change courses in mid-year, although the year had just started when the OP first posted. Like many a parent, including me at some points in my kids' educational careers, OP has excuses for why her daughter didn't get recommended for this honors class. Sometimes we parents are right and sometimes we're not. Sometimes the teachers are up against pressures from their own administration keeping them from being as flexible as they might like to be...
Oh, I know why my daughter didn't get in the honor Algebra 2. I wouldn't call it excuses for why the didn't get in, it's pretty clear and just facts: she had the letter grade, but not the test score needed to get in. The teacher sent me a note saying my daughter was close and I could petition to get her in honors if I wanted to (and the teacher would support it). But it was only February/March, I didn't know how her freshman year would end up, and I talked to my daughter and she was concerned with two other honors classes and an AP class that it might be too much. So we decided to leave it as is.
It was only after the summer, after my daughter did a lot of soul searching, that started to get some focus on college that she decided she wanted to be a math major. She became concerned that it might hurt her not to be in honors. Hence the whole point of my thread, I just wondered if it was worth challenging for this year.
It's moot. We can't change it. But from what people here told me, it will be okay and that's what I told my daughter.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I just remember it being my senior year because I had to go to the fair after my after school job (which I only had in my senior year). It could have very well been earlier than mid year. It's funny, I remember what I wore to the college night that night and I even remember going in my dad's car. But I really can't remember the month. I just assumed it was sometime mid year because the outfit I wore was a wool skirt and jacket. That skirt and jacket were my nicest outfit (it was designer... a hand me down.. but I thought it was impressive). Maybe I overdressed for September. Still, my main point was I wasn't being told by the school to start picking majors and thinking about which colleges I wanted to go to in the beginning of my junior year like they are doing at my daughter's school.
I dunno
