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Some degrees are pretty much iron clad like engineering or the hard sciences. But paying $20 or $30 k a year is just insane for something iffy. It doesnt make any rational sense at all.
In the old paradigm of the 50's to 80's, everything was so cheap and easy, college didnt really matter. It seems like everyone filled the slot they were suppose to, with money left over. You could either go up in white collar work. Or down in blue collar work and be able to pay the bills. Whether two parents or single parent.
The idea of college as "training" broke down in the 80's. And you end up with these stories of brilliant people with a masters working at starbucks. Was anyone with a masters working minimum wage in the 60's? Probably not.
You have a whole bunch of inflated paper, like a masters or phd, which doesnt buy you much in some fields. Then there are other fields under represented like vocational, tech training.
I dont think people find themselves early enough in highschool or early college. Waiting around to graduate school to "find yourself" is becoming increasingly expensive and costly.
Every college student should know what his/her student loan payments will be before they start classes. This idea of "trust us", just get a degree and you'll be successful is insane. That oath broke long ago.
Those statistics weren't done in consideration of a failing economy and a parasitic higher education system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellem
You are looking at outliers here to make your case, they are not the norm. Look at this chart from the Department of Labor. This chart has a breakdown of the 2008 unemployment rate and median weekly earnings.
I think the chart clearly states, that the highest your education level the more likely you are of having future wealth and job security
I don't believe that college is the answer for everyone. Advanced degrees will always be needed for those who wish to become lawyers, doctors, scientists or teachers or professors, but many people would benefit far more from more vocational/on the job type training courses for many professions and *gasp* some people are the type who learn by "doing", rather than by spending 4 years at college and racking up tens of thousands of dollars' worth of debt.
Those statistics weren't done in consideration of a failing economy and a parasitic higher education system.
Those statistics are just that, statistics. That was the reality in 2008. How the current economy or a "parasitic" higher education system (as you seem to think it is) will affect those statistics is anyone's guess, and like with any other statistic or histogram, past performance does not guarantee future performance. But, I would rather be in the group that statistically has lower unemployment and higher wages. What about you?
Those statistics are just that, statistics. That was the reality in 2008. How the current economy or a "parasitic" higher education system (as you seem to think it is) will affect those statistics is anyone's guess, and like with any other statistic or histogram, past performance does not guarantee future performance. But, I would rather be in the group that statistically has lower unemployment and higher wages. What about you?
I agree on that note!! After the recession is over and people start hiring again, best believe they are going to be very picky about who they hire. I know several people that are out of work and they do not have any education. One of my nieces just got passed over for an important promotion that would have added $20,000 to her salary but she didnt have a Bachelor's degree.
OMG I feel so very lucky that I'm already highly educated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whydoucare?
I agree on that note!! After the recession is over and people start hiring again, best believe they are going to be very picky about who they hire. I know several people that are out of work and they do not have any education. One of my nieces just got passed over for an important promotion that would have added $20,000 to her salary but she didnt have a Bachelor's degree.
College nowadays is a necessary evil. I have two degrees in engineering and there is very little overlap between what I learned in school and what I do at my job. About 1% of what I use in my job I learned exclusively in school, and the rest is from life experience and self-learning.
I can see that college would be useful and necessary for someone who went to poor schools and is not literate or numerate. (How one can last 13 years in school without developing literacy and numeracy is beyond me.) However, I went to good schools and was basically ready for the work force at 18, yet I *had* to go to college just to send signals to employers that I was not a slouch. Even majoring in engineering, college was mostly a waste. Yet I had to do it. It's a complete scam, mostly perpetuated by lazy hiring managers who want a resume keyword search engine to do their job for them.
I'm waiting for McKinsey or some other outfit to do a study on the resources wasted on higher education in the US, and compare this to what would be the increased cost of private firms' recruiting more aggressively and being more open-minded about who they interview. Software companies are pretty good about this, as they will hire computer auto-didacts with only a high school diploma into six-figure jobs, but even this trend is receding. Of course private firms will never assume these added costs, as they prefer to outsource their HR functions to universities. In fact I doubt McKinsey would ever do such a study, as they kicked off the credential bubble by outsourcing their HR functions to top-ten business schools, and everyone emulated them. I'm sure you could make an argument that socialized educational costs have an economy of scale that is net beneficial, but I think the credential requirements of hiring managers have gotten out of control in recent years and are bordering on abuse of a public good by private players.
Even worse, a college degree is no longer a guarantor of career stability. I know people my age who studied their butts off to get into Ivy League schools, took out loans to finance their private education, studied their butts off in college to go to Wall Street, worked like dogs for a couple years and paid off their loans, got laid off after the market crash, and are now 25-26 years old, basically cash neutral, starting over, and with exit opps that are nowhere near what they were made out to be. All this after a lifetime of toil and hopping through every elite hoop that was thrown up. What was the point of it all? I've heard horror stories of biglaw associates that are in even worse positions than their finance friends, because they wasted three more years in school, got laid off after a couple years, and are now 100,000-200,000 in debt from law school, their legal careers in tatters, starting over at 27-28, and with fewer opps than if they had only a bachelor's degree because a JD largely limits you to only practice law. For them, extra education had a huge negative ROI. And oh yeah, these plumb jobs make people miserable on top of being risky. And don't get me started on PhD students...
These people are the best of the best, and thought elite pedigrees were tickets to a good life. Now they realize they were just gambling in a saturated market.
The American economy is deleveraging. It does not make sense to pay 25 year old derivatives traders $500,000 to $1,000,000 a year to play a computer game, or to pay 25 year old biglaw associates $200,000 net to fiddle around with MS Word. As a result the market is disciplining these bloated industries and taking away their obscene compensation. The problem is that academe always lags the real world, so tuition levels will remain inflated for years after the carrot of big starting salaries for grads has been removed. Paying sticker for an elite education now is basically a sucker's bet.
My advice is to minimize leverage and plan on getting rich slowly. You can get an associates degree in something like network administration for very little, and get a job in some company's IT department and take it from there. If you're good, you'll rise. If you suck, then no amount of education will help you. Best not to get in debt then.
If you can get a toehold in a reputable firm without going to college, you are ahead of the game. If at some point lack of credentials holds you back, get them as needed at night.
I'm glad you are honest about your college experience. Too many paint a rosey picture of college being some amazing and wonderful place. It can be a necessary evil; however, each person should decide for themselves .... It's a personal choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Principally Peter
College nowadays is a necessary evil. I have two degrees in engineering and there is very little overlap between what I learned in school and what I do at my job. About 1% of what I use in my job I learned exclusively in school, and the rest is from life experience and self-learning.
I can see that college would be useful and necessary for someone who went to poor schools and is not literate or numerate. (How one can last 13 years in school without developing literacy and numeracy is beyond me.) However, I went to good schools and was basically ready for the work force at 18, yet I *had* to go to college just to send signals to employers that I was not a slouch. Even majoring in engineering, college was mostly a waste. Yet I had to do it. It's a complete scam, mostly perpetuated by lazy hiring managers who want a resume keyword search engine to do their job for them.
I'm waiting for McKinsey or some other outfit to do a study on the resources wasted on higher education in the US, and compare this to what would be the increased cost of private firms' recruiting more aggressively and being more open-minded about who they interview. Software companies are pretty good about this, as they will hire computer auto-didacts with only a high school diploma into six-figure jobs, but even this trend is receding. Of course private firms will never assume these added costs, as they prefer to outsource their HR functions to universities. In fact I doubt McKinsey would ever do such a study, as they kicked off the credential bubble by outsourcing their HR functions to top-ten business schools, and everyone emulated them. I'm sure you could make an argument that socialized educational costs have an economy of scale that is net beneficial, but I think the credential requirements of hiring managers have gotten out of control in recent years and are bordering on abuse of a public good by private players.
Even worse, a college degree is no longer a guarantor of career stability. I know people my age who studied their butts off to get into Ivy League schools, took out loans to finance their private education, studied their butts off in college to go to Wall Street, worked like dogs for a couple years and paid off their loans, got laid off after the market crash, and are now 25-26 years old, basically cash neutral, starting over, and with exit opps that are nowhere near what they were made out to be. All this after a lifetime of toil and hopping through every elite hoop that was thrown up. What was the point of it all? I've heard horror stories of biglaw associates that are in even worse positions than their finance friends, because they wasted three more years in school, got laid off after a couple years, and are now 100,000-200,000 in debt from law school, their legal careers in tatters, starting over at 27-28, and with fewer opps than if they had only a bachelor's degree because a JD largely limits you to only practice law. For them, extra education had a huge negative ROI. And oh yeah, these plumb jobs make people miserable on top of being risky. And don't get me started on PhD students...
These people are the best of the best, and thought elite pedigrees were tickets to a good life. Now they realize they were just gambling in a saturated market.
The American economy is deleveraging. It does not make sense to pay 25 year old derivatives traders $500,000 to $1,000,000 a year to play a computer game, or to pay 25 year old biglaw associates $200,000 net to fiddle around with MS Word. As a result the market is disciplining these bloated industries and taking away their obscene compensation. The problem is that academe always lags the real world, so tuition levels will remain inflated for years after the carrot of big starting salaries for grads has been removed. Paying sticker for an elite education now is basically a sucker's bet.
My advice is to minimize leverage and plan on getting rich slowly. You can get an associates degree in something like network administration for very little, and get a job in some company's IT department and take it from there. If you're good, you'll rise. If you suck, then no amount of education will help you. Best not to get in debt then.
If you can get a toehold in a reputable firm without going to college, you are ahead of the game. If at some point lack of credentials holds you back, get them as needed at night.
What are you talking about, "starting over at 25-26 years old"? A 26 year old has never even gotten started, let alone 'start over.'
Talk about wanting instant gratification RFN.
I'll admit that engineering was a huge mistake for me. A four year degree gets you a tiny cube with a company whose HR people make 50% more but produce nothing...except more cube dwellers. It also gains you admission to meetings...meetings in preparation of meetings...meetings to talk about what was talked about in previous meetings...and more mind-numbing meetings.
A person needs to get into something they like. Forget the starting salaries; engineering usually has a good starting salary and but they're the last ones to get access to the payroll package so every other discipline ends up with bigger raises and eventually the engineer is shocked to find that other people who started at much lower salaries now make much more than him. Get into something you like; if you like it, you'll probably be good at it and the pay will take care of itself.
I agree it's a somewhat ridiculous statement, but it's true for some super-competitive lines of work, such as investment banking, corporate law, and medicine, where getting off track in the early stages of your career basically sends you on a different, less desirable trajectory. Also consider that even though the people I speak of have only been working for a few years, their careers started in high school, by taking the right classes, getting the right grades, going to the right schools, etc. Suffice it to say that they are feeling quite let down by the job market, esp. when people born only a few years earlier were able to stay on track and will probably achieve more success over the course of their lives.
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