That 18 mile stretch of I-25 from Monument to Castle Rock (Colorado Springs: 2015, credit)

[SpringsF6B]

So we are spending everyone's tax money to help out the privileged few. I say screw the new lane, we can spend this money in other ways which might actually benefit the tax payers who pay. Why on gods green earth would I want to spend my tax dollars to help rich folks? Don't they have enough already?

I've only lived in Colorado few years but I've got to tell you the politicians here are among the most corrupt I've seen. Purposefully misleading ballot issue, the Broadmoor land grab, now toll lanes for the rich.

When I first got here I couldn't understand why voters were dead set against spending money on well - anything. Now I know, no matter what Colorado Springs politicians claim the money is for they are lying.

I have now officially joined the vote no group. I don't care what the vote is for - my vote is no.

[Vision67]

Funny how our politicians "forgot" to mention toll lanes prior to the vote.

And they wonder why people have so much contempt for politicians?

[Lightning_Hunter]

The other issue with these toll lanes is in the construction process itself. We always put up with construction on I-25: reduced speed, lane closures, and more - because all of us understand it is for the best (the I-25 / Cimarron Interchange for example). However, are all of us really willing to put up with 1-2 years of construction work on the worst stretch of the interstate, all for a few toll lanes to be added for the elite and for government revenue?

I really do think more people need to fight this. Our voice needs to be heard in such circumstances. Everyone should at least write letters. Type e-mails to CDOT, send letters to the senator, etc...

CDOT:
https://www.codot.gov/ (bottom right of the page has contact info)

Senator Michael Bennett: https://www.bennet.senate.gov/?p=contact

Cory Gardner: https://www.gardner.senate.gov/

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Lightning_Hunter

In other words, the government is using a social experiment to discourage us from driving so the roads won't become a "parking lot" - or we can pay a toll. Just leave it up to the good ol' government to decide what we need and don't need.

Isn't the good ol' government providing you a choice in this case? One can a) forgo paying a toll and simply use the system that is provided by existing funding (a system that will have some improvements, but not a lot for $12M)), or b) pay the toll and be guaranteed a faster trip. If the interstate system was privatized I would bet that a similar structure would materialize. Preferred service for preferred customers, i.e. those that are more valuable as they give more money to the the company- or the state in this regard.

We all know that argument isn't the truth, though. Lets face it: they saw a bunch of $$$ signs by putting in toll lanes. Politicians are merely trying to convince us that toll lanes will somehow psychologically trick people in to not driving, which will in turn miraculously free up the interstate. That is another one of those bogus arguments that I'm sure they don't even believe themselves.

There are several studies that do strongly show a correlation between tolling and traffic speeds and road capacity. So it's about funding, carrying capacity, and the level of service. In an era of radically diminished funding, there's a strong emphasis for CDOT to develop roads that pay for themselves- and then some. Because the piddly gas tax certainly isn't going to pay for any of this and it seems that the populace doesn't want a general funding increase for transportation that covers construction and maintenance. They just want increased speed, less traffic, new roads, and would really like to not pay for anything.

[Lightning_Hunter]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Isn't the good ol' government providing you a choice in this case?

No, they are not giving us a choice. If they had, everyone would have voted "no". Do you honestly believe that CDOT is looking out for us by building toll lanes? I seriously doubt you believe that deep down. You sound like you are trying to convince yourself of something that you know isn't true.

There are several studies that do strongly show a correlation between tolling and traffic speeds and road capacity. So it's about funding, carrying capacity, and the level of service. In an era of radically diminished funding, there's a strong emphasis for CDOT to develop roads that pay for themselves- and then some. Because the piddly gas tax certainly isn't going to pay for any of this and it seems that the populace doesn't want a general funding increase for transportation that covers construction and maintenance. They just want increased speed, less traffic, new roads, and would really like to not pay for anything.

I would like to see these "studies". I have to say, even if you found so-called studies that showed a reduction in traffic due to the addition of toll lanes, I would say it is only because people are discouraged from driving. Now that you mention it, I am already convincing myself to avoid going to Denver for any reason at all in the next few years while construction goes on, and possibly even after they are built. In a twisted, sadistic way, the toll roads are already doing their job. By this logic, you might as well say that metered parking opens up parking spaces for people, because fewer people decide to go to the parts of town in which they have to pay for parking.

In the end, discouraging people from living out their lives is not a wise tactic, because it hurts the economy. If you widen I-25 and make the lanes free for all, people will travel much more, and the tourism industry will grow. If you simply deter people from traveling, you hurt tourism.

You know, if CDOT promised to only toll the exact amount they need to keep up maintenance on the road (and showed us ongoing proof), I might be in favor of toll lanes - because I imagine the toll will be low then. However, I am sure they will make the toll as high as possible, and use the "excess" revenue for other projects. We all know how the government works. Here is just one article out many on the topic:
https://www.watchdog.org/pennsylvani...df9ca5220.html

Edit: By the way, stop using the cost of the project itself as an argument. CDOT already said the entire project will be funded by federal grants, state grants, and of course our very own "excess" revenue. They are telling us that the toll lanes are specifically for ongoing maintenance of the roads. However, they refuse to give us estimates on how much maintenance will cost, or how high the tolls will be. That smells very fishy to me.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Isn't the good ol' government providing you a choice in this case? One can a) forgo paying a toll and simply use the system that is provided by existing funding (a system that will have some improvements, but not a lot for $12M)), or b) pay the toll and be guaranteed a faster trip. If the interstate system was privatized I would bet that a similar structure would materialize. Preferred service for preferred customers, i.e. those that are more valuable as they give more money to the the company- or the state in this regard.



There are several studies that do strongly show a correlation between tolling and traffic speeds and road capacity. So it's about funding, carrying capacity, and the level of service. In an era of radically diminished funding, there's a strong emphasis for CDOT to develop roads that pay for themselves- and then some. Because the piddly gas tax certainly isn't going to pay for any of this and it seems that the populace doesn't want a general funding increase for transportation that covers construction and maintenance. They just want increased speed, less traffic, new roads, and would really like to not pay for anything.

Then fine. Let the toll payers pay for the new lane...not the general tax payers.

[SpringsF6B]

phetaroi, you are 100% correct !!!

[1AngryTaxPayer]

So many people use the toll roads here during rush hour they go no faster than the regular lanes.

There was talk of adding another lane north of the springs since the early 70s. I can't imagine how bad it is now.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

Then fine. Let the toll payers pay for the new lane...not the general tax payers.

Exactly. When enough general tax payers get sick and tired of sitting on the I-25 parking lot maybe they'll pony up the tax bucks to fix it. Toll lanes just for toll payers are not my preferred solution. We're all in this together and my way to fix it is that we should all pay together as equals and all of us should use the lanes as needed; until then we can all suffer together.

With all the cynicism about tax money being shunted off to other needs, or flat out "wasted" then it's to be expected that elected types get a little cynical too. They will allow the problems to fester until the public gets so sick and tired of it they'll vote to pay for the fix, until then they do not care who sits in traffic or how long. Having worked at Army HQs in the Pentagon where we kicked around tens of billions every year in the Army budget my experience tells me that "stuff happens" and you have to reallocate planned expenditures to exigencies and changes that occur. Like the Pentagon, the states do their budgeting and planning years in advance and hope the world doesn't change, when it does change, it isn't crookedness, it's life.

It seems there is just no way ever to please the cynics who believe all government is just one big scam and all taxes are wasted. Nothing works to fix that bias other than letting the roads rot to the core, like they did in Colorado Springs, before the general tax payers there finally agreed to kick a few more dollars into the kitty.

[SpringsF6B]

The problem with toll lanes if that everyone pays to build them and not everyone gets to use them. It's simply wrong. Either fix it so everyone get the benefit or don't do it at all.


The real problem here is not the toll or not to toll debate, it is the 2 ballot issues that were approved in November. These issues were presented as measures that were going to solve the Monument to Castle Rock traffic problems. The Indy recommended a Yes vote. I refuse to read the Gazette but I will assume it also recommended a Yes vote. Nowhere was a toll lane mentioned. Not in the reviews and not on the ballot. The issues passed easily because fixing this problem is a no brain-er. I voted Yes on both issues. Then, less than a month later the project becomes a toll lane. Speaking for myself, if I had known this, my Yes vote would have been a No vote. I believe that if the voting public knew this before the vote neither if these ballot issues would have passed. I believe that this information was purposefully withheld from the voting public to influence the out come.


Now C-dot has their money and a lot of voters are mad. The real fallout is going to be felt when future tax issues find their way to the ballot. When the time comes for me to decide how I want to vote I will have to ask myself, what don't I know? Are their crucial facts being withheld? Is the money actually going to be spent as the ballot implies it will? A lot of people will vote No on issues simply because of a lack of trust.


I am not sure what is needed for something to raise to the level of ballot fraud but this must come damn close.