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Well, the Confederate flag is a Southern thing shared by all races of the South - and you obviously cannot and will not understand.
Say what?!?!?
African Americans throughout the South will politely disagree. Now you can find some Negro on Youtube and pretend that they represent how African Americans feel, and no about the "tradition" of the rebel flag. Our Southern pride, doesn't include the confederacy.
Now if you think THAT is hateful, try thinking about Americans who were terrorized by folks waving your "southern pride" flag for generations. Now while I generally ascribe to Godwin's Law when it come to the Klan, the White Citizens Councils and the white power structure of the south that supported them, I see little difference between them and their German racialist brethren, which begs the question, if we were discussing the Nazi flag, would you be arguing with Jews that the Nazi flag is just a harmless symbol of German pride?
Well I read a great deal about the Civil War and what those Johnny Rebs endured on campaign....well more man than I am and all of you whinning here in 21st Century comfort. I notice the video clips of the Gettysburg 50th and 75th Anniversaries when vets reunited on the battlefield and both flags were flown.[you see pics of vets side by side with their battle flags] Respect among fellow soldiers who endured tremendous privations in the field. Damning Confederates because they fought for a regime that represented slavery,[because you know even slavery was legal in the USA for nearly 70years., then there is the neo-slavery of Jim Crow era] is akin to damning Germans who fought in WW2 but were not National Socialist.[In before the losers post about race because you folk are idiots if you will find more than a handful of whites in the North who thought blacks were in all respects their equals] Intelligent people understand the distinction of honoring the men who suffered rather than the politics. Does anyone really think the few Southern States that fly the flag on gov't buildings are actually longing for the CSA or a return to slavery? Hardly. Respect for all of the men from their past who died in war. Easy to criticize long dead Confederates. More men than any of you will ever will be.
Some of you folk sound like the type who called GIs coming home from Vietnam Babykillers and spat on them,etc.
Because a bunch of losers co-opted the flag is no reason to remove it. The poor behavior of a limited few is never a reason to restrict the orderly majority.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100
I'm not trying to hate on you or rewrite history. I do think people should move on, however, since actual confederates are all dead. I never said we should remove that page from US history books. I guess my intent is to try to understand. You're right, I can't imagine picking up my state's flag and going to battle with the US over it.
Facts about the confederacy:
an illegitimate foreign nation
had its own constitution.
had an economy based on slavery
fought against the USA
has been dead for 150 years
Do you at least understand why some Americans might view confederates as rogues or as enemy combatants such as the taliban or al quaeda? The mission is all the same, attack the United States.
Are you for or against slavery? would you fight against the USA again if necessary?
I do understand how some black people have associated that flag with negative things directed at their culture. I do. I have the ability to consider the feelings of others that may not be of my culture.
Being for or against slavery in and of itself is not a part of that flag, but that flag has never been a symbol of slavery in any real way. At best, 36% of the South participated in owning someone, but ALL of South - red, some say yellow, black, brown and white had someone die under the Stars and Bars, and it is a disgrace for people to flippantly disregard the words of Mr Edgerton, and Mr Winbush, and hundreds if not thousands of others just like them, to push their own agenda based on lies.
I cannot help that the South is fully aware of their history, while others elsewhere have desided to teach their children something different. You would think all these years later that the truth could finally emerge and heal the nation, rather than to perpetrate the lie and keep it divided.
How can anyone look at the videos produced by Southern black folks and tell them that making the flag the sole property of the KKK & Neo-Nazis is more important than what they themselves know to be true?
If you have an honest heart-felt answer for that question, I can listen.
The Confederacy was neither illegitimate, nor any different than the North in any way prior to the Civil War, other than having a longer growing season. Our founding fathers were consumed with self-determination and preventing tyranny from both within and without. Sucession was not a step taken lightly, and I guess to be fair, neither was forcing a centralized Federal government with supreme power down everyone's throat. But, the bloodiest war in this nations history, for both the North and the South, followed the determination to acquire such an outcome.
As I said before, Southerners of all races are not ignorant people. If the NAACP declared that all things Confederate be removed in 1990, would anyone believe it ends at the Capital building in SC?
Historically, it would have been interesting to have a crystal ball and see what the North would have done with their slaves had the South won, and we became two seperate nations as had been suggested.
Do you think they would have bothered to go forth with an Amendment, forcing General Grant and his relatives to free theirs, or would it have been business as usual?
Its already spread to TV land and Walmart.
Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 07-04-2015 at 10:02 AM..
I do understand how some black people have associated that flag with negative things directed at their culture. I do. I have the ability to consider the feelings of others that may not be of my culture.
Being for or against slavery in and of itself is not a part of that flag, but that flag has never been a symbol of slavery in any real way. At best, 36% of the South participated in owning someone, but ALL of South - red, some say yellow, black, brown and white had someone die under the Stars and Bars, and it is a disgrace for people to flippantly disregard the words of Mr Edgerton, and Mr Winbush, and hundreds if not thousands of others just like them, to push their own agenda based on lies.
I cannot help that the South is fully aware of their history, while others elsewhere have desided to teach their children something different. You would think all these years later that the truth could finally emerge and heal the nation, rather than to perpetrate the lie and keep it divided.
How can anyone look at the videos produced by Southern black folks and tell them that making the flag the sole property of the KKK & Neo-Nazis is more important than what they themselves know to be true?
If you have an honest heart-felt answer for that question, I can listen.
The Confederacy was neither illegitimate, nor any different than the North in any way prior to the Civil War, other than having a longer growing season. Our founding fathers were consumed with self-determination and preventing tyranny from both within and without. Sucession was not a step taken lightly, and I guess to be fair, neither was forcing a centralized Federal government with supreme power down everyone's throat. But, the bloodiest war in this nations history, for both the North and the South, followed the determination to acquire such an outcome.
As I said before, Southerners of all races are not ignorant people. If the NAACP declared that all things Confederate be removed in 1990, would anyone believe it ends at the Capital building in SC?
Historically, it would have been interesting to have a crystal ball and see what the North would have done with their slaves had the South won, and we became two seperate nations as had been suggested.
Do you think they would have bothered to go forth with an Amendment, forcing General Grant and his relatives to free theirs, or would it have business as usual?
Its already spread to TV land and Walmart.
ok so what are your motives for keeping the confederacy alive?
You keep saying it wasnt' a foreign nation or illegitimate. it was. Might not have been foreign to you but it was foreign to your ancestors and the Union.
why can't you just wave your state's flag and be happy like normal Americans? Why does your cause have to be so extreme that you would defend it with your entire being?
my guess, I think modern confederates want to repeat history. "The south shall rise again." Isn't that the battle cry? Therein lies the problem.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100
ok so what are your motives for keeping the confederacy alive?
You keep saying it wasnt' a foreign nation or illegitimate. it was. Might not have been foreign to you but it was foreign to your ancestors and the Union.
why can't you just wave your state's flag and be happy like normal Americans? Why does your cause have to be so extreme that you would defend it with your entire being?
my guess, I think modern confederates want to repeat history. "The south shall rise again." Isn't that the battle cry? Therein lies the problem.
The same motive that keeps many black people calling themselves "African-American". Why cant you just be American and be happy? You see how that works?
Its my heritage. We do not forget our Veterans that died in the Revolution, again, of all colors, why would we forget those that died under that flag as well.
The South shall rise again is about pulling together and rebuilding after the war. The South to this day is still rebuilding.
Its not a battle cry, but again, it is an outside interpretation. Everyone knows the best way to repeat history is to forget it. It would seem your point of view would do more to divide, and is doing more to divide.
Why cant we at least get to the point where we have mutual respect? Let's say deep-down you hate white people, and feel you have very good reasons to. What reason do you have to hurt Mr Edgerton and Mr Winbush, and their decendants, and others like them?
I think they are both very intelligent and very brave men with a story to tell. Why cant you at least listen to them?
Damning Confederates because they fought for a regime that represented slavery,[because you know even slavery was legal in the USA for nearly 70years., then there is the neo-slavery of Jim Crow era] is akin to damning Germans who fought in WW2 but were not National Socialist.
You know there is a world of difference between condemnation and honoring, not that this is really the issue at hand.
But since you brought it up...
What difference does it make that a confederate soldier wasn't personally fighting for slavery or a German solider who wasn't a actual member of the Nazi Party? At the end of the day, they're participation aided and abetted those policies. Now for myself, I think that the policies pursued during Reconstruction, and post WW2 were correct, in neither case were everyday soldiers or officers prosecuted for their role in their respective conflicts. Restoration, not retribution was the goal and that is how it should be.
The only problem is that unlike the German soldiers, unreconstructed southerns didn't renounce their racist policies but actively went about creating slavery-lite, through the use of violence that would shock even Nazi sensibilities! Unlike their German counterparts, in defeat the Germans didn't construct memorials to their valiant (and I mean that sincerely) soldiers who fought in the war, they didn't or at least haven't yet, establish foundations to rewrite the history of the WW2 - now the Japanese are a whole different story.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,150,745 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino
You know there is a world of difference between condemnation and honoring, not that this is really the issue at hand.
But since you brought it up...
What difference does it make that a confederate soldier wasn't personally fighting for slavery or a German solider who wasn't a actual member of the Nazi Party? At the end of the day, they're participation aided and abetted those policies. Now for myself, I think that the policies pursued during Reconstruction, and post WW2 were correct, in neither case were everyday soldiers or officers prosecuted for their role in their respective conflicts. Restoration, not retribution was the goal and that is how it should be.
The only problem is that unlike the German soldiers, unreconstructed southerns didn't renounce their racist policies but actively went about creating slavery-lite, through the use of violence that would shock even Nazi sensibilities! Unlike their German counterparts, in defeat the Germans didn't construct memorials to their valiant (and I mean that sincerely) soldiers who fought in the war, they didn't or at least haven't yet, establish foundations to rewrite the history of the WW2 - now the Japanese are a whole different story.
That is the problem with the confederate flag.
I ask again, why is it you handing ownership of a symbol of the American South and American History to those groups then?
I ask again, why cant you at least listen to the stories of Mr Edgerton, and Mr Winbush, and care about them and their feelings just a little? They are both black men, and their videos are posted on this thread.
I dont care what the Germans did in their country - we are talking about what you and those who feel like you are doing today in this country.
The same motive that keeps many black people calling themselves "African-American". Why cant you just be American and be happy? You see how that works?
Its my heritage. We do not forget our Veterans that died in the Revolution, again, of all colors, why would we forget those that died under that flag as well.
The South shall rise again is about pulling together and rebuilding after the war. The South to this day is still rebuilding.
Its not a battle cry, but again, it is an outside interpretation. Everyone knows the best way to repeat history is to forget it. It would seem your point of view would do more to divide, and is doing more to divide.
Why cant we at least get to the point where we have mutual respect? Let's say deep-down you hate white people, and feel you have very good reasons to. What reason do you have to hurt Mr Edgerton and Mr Winbush, and their decendants, and others like them?
I think they are both very intelligent and very brave men with a story to tell. Why cant you at least listen to them?
ok I understand your point of view a little better.
I don't think I am the one being divisive. The confederate flag itself represents secession/division. So as long as you fly it, you have to accept all that it represents to everybody else. It might seem normal to you but can be disturbing to non-confederates.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,150,745 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay100
ok I understand your point of view a little better.
I don't think I am the one being divisive. The confederate flag itself represents secession/division. So as long as you fly it, you have to accept all that it represents to everybody else. It might seem normal to you but can be disturbing to non-confederates.
No, I dont have to accept your interpretation of what it means to me. Its Southern Heritage plain and simple. But, I can agree that it can be disturbing to outsiders, although it hasnt been until 1990.
If anyone has anything to say about the activities of the Klan, it would certainly be the same Southern blacks that are standing TALL to preserve their heritage as well as mine. They would be on the frontline of suffering under those groups both in age as well as location. The flag represents the Confederate Navy - the one everyone is most familiar with. It is neither a government flag, nor a flag that was picked up and carried by the KKK until the 1950s, trying to cash in on its popularity after WWII. The flag has been to all wars Americans have participated since the Civil War with its Southern soldiers.
What happened in 1990 to suddenly make it mean something else that we suddenly need to jump on and correct? If the South doesnt feel it needs correcting, who is anyone else to correct it for for us?
You know there is a world of difference between condemnation and honoring, not that this is really the issue at hand.
But since you brought it up...
What difference does it make that a confederate soldier wasn't personally fighting for slavery or a German solider who wasn't a actual member of the Nazi Party? At the end of the day, they're participation aided and abetted those policies. Now for myself, I think that the policies pursued during Reconstruction, and post WW2 were correct, in neither case were everyday soldiers or officers prosecuted for their role in their respective conflicts. Restoration, not retribution was the goal and that is how it should be.
The only problem is that unlike the German soldiers, unreconstructed southerns didn't renounce their racist policies but actively went about creating slavery-lite, through the use of violence that would shock even Nazi sensibilities! Unlike their German counterparts, in defeat the Germans didn't construct memorials to their valiant (and I mean that sincerely) soldiers who fought in the war, they didn't or at least haven't yet, establish foundations to rewrite the history of the WW2 - now the Japanese are a whole different story.
That is the problem with the confederate flag.
Of course, the same can be said for the USA flag and if you have been here at CD long enough you realize the USA is regarded as no different by many, hence my reference to Antebellum and post CW periods. The Howard Zinn effect at work no doubt.
The CSA flag is used by some as a symbol of racism or similar but again, because you overlooked it, do you really think the Governments of the Southern States in question are using the flag for the purposes above or to honor their dead. Obviously the latter. That some will abuse a thing is a given. Hmmm, you know how the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor led to demonizing Japanese leading to Internment. This is nothing more than foolish mob hysteria.
As for the other if you do not see the difference in serving your country, right or wrong, then well you are on a separate level of understanding as myself. Hence the reference to US GIs called baby killers by the then youth of the 1960s. Mob Hysteria again.
You basically overlooked everything I wrote as a whole. Too bad. But that is how it is on CD. There goes any chance of reasonable conversation.
Last edited by Felix C; 07-04-2015 at 11:39 AM..
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