Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Catholic poster I was replying to was basically saying that that Jewish mom should have just shut up and gone along with the Christian majority. I was pointing out to him that in the 19th Century, Catholics did no such thing when they found their religious beliefs were not being respected; instead, they went to court over the matter of their children being required to read the King James Bible and say Protestant prayers in public school - and they won. "Going with the flow," would have changed nothing, but protesting did. We no longer have any devotional prayers or devotional Bible reading in public schools because today we recognize how divisive that practice is. (Heck, we can't even all agree on just what books constitute the Bible in the first place!)
Now I am NOT saying this was an experience unique to Catholics; there were times various Protestant denominations had to resort to the courts to see their religious freedoms upheld as well. But since the poster I was responding to was Catholic, it's the Catholic public school experience in the 19th century which is most relevant to his "just put up and shut up if your religion doesn't celebrate Christmas" stance.
That Jewish kindergartener's mom is part of a long and respectable American tradition, and she did nothing wrong, whatever those other California parents might like to think.
And those Protestant parents were absolutely right to complain. While it certainly won't kill anyone to go meatless on a Friday, why should non-Cathloics have been forced to abide by that custom? (For that matter, closing the school cafeteria altogether on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday should also be out of the question even in a Catholic-majority public school. We mackerel-snappers don't get to tell those other kids they can't eat on a fast day! And let's not even THINK about closing the cafeteria for Ramadan...)
I'm not objecting to any historical fact whatsoever. I did not disagree with your information about Bible reading and such, and I have no intention of wasting my time looking at your links, because I know all that stuff. I lived through that time; I was 13 by the time the SCOTUS ruled school prayer unconstitutional in 1962.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel
Oh, and for the record:
It is a historical fact that the Protestant majority in America openly discriminated against Roman Catholics for many years, and passed viciously discriminatory anti-Catholic laws in many areas during the 19th century.
It is also a historical fact that it was Protestants who acted to finally put an end to that nonsense.
No minority ever succeeds in ending a discriminatory practice without substantial help from those folks of good will in the majority. Just as it took men to pass laws granting women the right to vote and whites to repeal Jim Crow, religious minorities' freedom to practice their faith rests on the fact that most people in the religious majority are fair-minded and reject religious discrimination once they are aware of it.
I don't have a beef with Protestants, Katarina. Why would I? Most of them are fine people!
I DO have a beef with folks (of any religious persuasion) who don't respect the rights of others to worship as they please. These folks are in the minority, but they make noise that's WAY out of proportion to their numbers. Right now most of them seem to be Christian, but given the current religious makeup of this country that's only to be expected. I'm quite confident it's only a matter of time before we see various non-Christian groups trying to twist the law to favor their creed. Some aspects of human nature never change!
Well, you've been banging on about these bad Protestants this whole thread. And how big of you, to say "(m)ost of them are fine people". Is that like, "some of my best friends are black"?
St. Nicholas, the historical antecedent to Santa Claus, is a Catholic construct. In my heavily Catholic town, the Catholics were just as gung-ho about Santa as those "fine people". In fact, some of those "fine people" did not even acknowledge Santa.
I went through 12 years of public school and never once heard of any school trip to see Santa. It's inappropriate! The children can go with their parents outside of public school hours. Sorry, but this doesn't pass the "smell test"!
Oh, good! Since the Constitution isn't about lawn ornaments, that means I'll be able to use the force of law to compel the guy in my town who has a really obnoxious religious sign on his front yard to take it down!
OUR traditions? That's the problem: you don't understand that the traditions you remember from your childhood were never universally shared. Plenty of people who are every bit as American as you deeply cherish completely different traditions. What makes you think it is OK to shove YOUR traditions down THEIR throats? And if in the future another faith becomes dominant in this country, would you be OK with that Faith's beloved traditions being foisted off on you?
Public school serves ALL children, not just the Christian ones.
Yes. Our. As in all of the people who celebrate a certain holiday.
And to be fair, if any other religion was in the majority throughout the history I think they'd be doing the same thing - "shoving traditions down people's throats." Not because they are *******s but it happens naturally because schools, churches and other institutions reflect the traditions, beliefs and priorities of the communities in which they reside. Again, I'm not saying minority traditions shouldn't be celebrated or recognized. I absolutely think they should. I just don't think people, communities, schools etc who do Santa/Christmas themed activities are evil people who sit around thinking of how they can offend others.
I just have a few thoughts:
1. I personally don't care if this is how money is spent, whether fully funded by the parents, the PTA, the teachers, or the school itself since they all have discretionary money to use as they see fit.
2. Not all field trips are mandatory. My own kids stayed home on days their schools were doing things they didn't want to do, like go to a swimming pool/water park (my son hated water activities) and that was ok...not everything is liked by everyone and there is no way in hell we can ever get around it. Jewish mom could have not signed the permission slip for that particular outing and kep her child home.
3. In a perfect world schools wouldn't even be thinking about doing stuff like this, they are schools and should stick with what their job is, teaching. Fun stuff is not their job. In this same perfect world parents would agree with this idea too.
I just have a few thoughts:
3. In a perfect world schools wouldn't even be thinking about doing stuff like this, they are schools and should stick with what their job is, teaching. Fun stuff is not their job. In this same perfect world parents would agree with this idea too.
There's plenty of fun stuff to do. Kindergarten is pretty much geared toward fun. It's pretty ridiculous to suggest that if the school doesn't take the kids to sit on Santa's lap (which is something I've never heard of any school doing, it's not exactly common, and other kindergarteners don't appear scarred by going, say, with their parents) that their kindergarten year is bleak and no fun.
Again, given that it's the kids' first year of school, if they didn't go they wouldn't know the difference.
This year my kid's public school had a school wide gingerbread house competition, they made snowflakes to hang on the school fence, they colored in a menorah, kwanza candles and made a Santa ornament. There are Jewish and Muslm kids, Christians and a lot of non believers. There was something for all of them, and each class had a feast on the last day. Just not specifically a Christmas feast.
As a society, people are being more intolerant of other faiths as of lately.
I don't think that's exactly true; I think the intolerance was always there, but now we are just seeing it more.
In a community where Faith A is overwhelmingly dominant, people of Faith B tend to keep any objections they have to themselves out of fear of negative consequences. So it may seem like everyone is getting along just fine, but it's an illusion. When Faith B becomes a higher percentage of the local demographic, now they may start to openly challenge Faith A's dominance over the public sphere, and things may turn nasty. But the intolerance between the two faiths was always there, it's just now it's less hidden.
You might want to take a peek at the links I posted in my recent reply to Katarina Witt. They show the US has a long, proud history of religious intolerance and bigotry (sometimes even codified into law). (We also have a long and even prouder history of ending it, though!)
I don't think that's exactly true; I think the intolerance was always there, but now we are just seeing it more.
In a community where Faith A is overwhelmingly dominant, people of Faith B tend to keep any objections they have to themselves out of fear of negative consequences. So it may seem like everyone is getting along just fine, but it's an illusion. When Faith B becomes a higher percentage of the local demographic, now they may start to openly challenge Faith A's dominance over the public sphere, and things may turn nasty. But the intolerance between the two faiths was always there, it's just now it's less hidden.
You might want to take a peek at the links I posted in my recent reply to Katarina Witt. They show the US has a long, proud history of religious intolerance and bigotry (sometimes even codified into law). (We also have a long and even prouder history of ending it, though!)
Please take your anti-Protestant bigotry somewhere else!
And to be fair, if any other religion was in the majority throughout the history I think they'd be doing the same thing - "shoving traditions down people's throats."
There's absolutely no question that is true.
Quote:
I just don't think people, communities, schools etc who do Santa/Christmas themed activities are evil people who sit around thinking of how they can offend others.
I doubt anyone posting in this thread believes that. But people don't have to be evil to perform acts that hurt others. Unintended hurt is still hurtful.
Now that the Christian parents of that school district have learned that not everyone views Christmas and Santa as purely secular, let's see what they do with that knowledge next year. I suspect they'll choose to make the school activities more inclusive.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
