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I disagree with your statement about Christians owning the public sphere. Television is a large part of that public sphere and it has degenerated into nonsense. Even the news is information that is unimportant and a contest of shorter skirts. There was a time when TV had shows with a moral but this new diversity dispenses with the need of that. We are a country with an increasing need for a moral sense of right and wrong. We could come together and decide on a set of moral principles until one person comes along and scuttles the whole thing.
Actually, a lot of television programs, particularly sit-coms, have morals imbedded in them. However, they're so blatantly worn on the sleeve now, you have to use your brain to see the points that are being made. "Blackish" is a good example. So is "The Middle". "Fresh Off The Boat". "Last Man Standing".
And the problem that you want your version of right or wrong to dominate. Morals are different in differen cultures, including within different cultures here in the United States.
Nonsense. My response to Katrina was that she went overboard in calling two others anti-semites. Not only do you call people names you make things up to get your point across. Before I said that you were losing this debate. Now I say that you've lost the debate by being creative with what wasn't said.
Work on your style.
This is at least the second reference you've made to winning or losing. Christmas is not about winning or losing.
The Catholic poster I was replying to was basically saying that that Jewish mom should have just shut up and gone along with the Christian majority. I was pointing out to him that in the 19th Century, Catholics did no such thing when they found their religious beliefs were not being respected; instead, they went to court over the matter of their children being required to read the King James Bible and say Protestant prayers in public school - and they won. "Going with the flow," would have changed nothing, but protesting did. We no longer have any devotional prayers or devotional Bible reading in public schools because today we recognize how divisive that practice is. (Heck, we can't even all agree on just what books constitute the Bible in the first place!)
Now I am NOT saying this was an experience unique to Catholics; there were times various Protestant denominations had to resort to the courts to see their religious freedoms upheld as well. But since the poster I was responding to was Catholic, it's the Catholic public school experience in the 19th century which is most relevant to his "just put up and shut up if your religion doesn't celebrate Christmas" stance.
That Jewish kindergartener's mom is part of a long and respectable American tradition, and she did nothing wrong, whatever those other California parents might like to think.
Quote:
I grew up in an area that is still today 50% Catholic; back in my day it was more like 75% of so by my best guess, and many of them observant. At the time, the choices of entree foir school lunches were 1. Take it, or 2. Leave it. On Fridays, the entree was meatless for the Catholic students. Now I didn't really care; I like fish, mac and cheese and the like, but a group of parents did get up in arms about it when I was in about 7th grade (this would be about 1962 or so) and protest "religious discrimination". So on Fridays we had a choice of entree, and I usually took the meatless as a (gasp!) Protestant.
And those Protestant parents were absolutely right to complain. While it certainly won't kill anyone to go meatless on a Friday, why should non-Cathloics have been forced to abide by that custom? (For that matter, closing the school cafeteria altogether on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday should also be out of the question even in a Catholic-majority public school. We mackerel-snappers don't get to tell those other kids they can't eat on a fast day! And let's not even THINK about closing the cafeteria for Ramadan...)
It is a historical fact that the Protestant majority in America openly discriminated against Roman Catholics for many years, and passed viciously discriminatory anti-Catholic laws in many areas during the 19th century.
It is also a historical fact that it was Protestants who acted to finally put an end to that nonsense.
No minority ever succeeds in ending a discriminatory practice without substantial help from those folks of good will in the majority. Just as it took men to pass laws granting women the right to vote and whites to repeal Jim Crow, religious minorities' freedom to practice their faith rests on the fact that most people in the religious majority are fair-minded and reject religious discrimination once they are aware of it.
I don't have a beef with Protestants, Katarina. Why would I? Most of them are fine people!
I DO have a beef with folks (of any religious persuasion) who don't respect the rights of others to worship as they please. These folks are in the minority, but they make noise that's WAY out of proportion to their numbers. Right now most of them seem to be Christian, but given the current religious makeup of this country that's only to be expected. I'm quite confident it's only a matter of time before we see various non-Christian groups trying to twist the law to favor their creed. Some aspects of human nature never change!
That would have been a fine way to handle this Santa trip. Make it optional and hold it outside school hours.
Right, and obviously the parents found the time when they wanted to sashay down to Santa as a "protest," so I don't buy the pootinky that parents don't have time, etc.
I don't think the fieldtrip rises to that level of persecution either. However, if we allow fieldtrips to see Santa, we then have to allow fieldtrips to see virtually anybody. Seriously think about it, do you really want that.
Nope again. Allowing trips to see Santa doesn't mean schools must allow trips to see virtually anybody.
If the kids were walking to the coffee shop to get a cup of hot chocolate (or other appropriate snack), and Santa happened to be there, and the kids could wave to him, I'd be all for this trip. But to have these kids write letters to Santa, something that many Christian parents object to as well, and then go to see Santa and sit in his lap (ditto), is over the top.
SO WHAT if this field trip was a school tradition? Traditions that are inappropriate should stop.
First of all, I think you'd be hard put to find a public school putting on a nativity pageant these days. Secondly, "there was never a fuss" hardly translates to "no one objected". I've heard this before. I've heard it from a bitterly anti-Semite about the pageant put on in her kids' school, until it wasn't. Did anyone ask the kids how they felt about this? They weren't actors, getting paid to do a part and who cares what it is, they were little kids!
The bold is very anti-Semitic.
School traditions are over the top? Let me guess, Varsity home coming which is a tradition in many schools are over the top right? Since when. I also did not mention the issue as a school tradition. Also the comments I made are not anti Semitic. For the most part the school respected the wishes.
I said some good stuff like how the students should have went during non school hours or weekends, or if not privately fund raise the money on their own instead of using school funds to see Santa. I Remember a story out here in Upstate NY where Jewish residents protested about Merry Xmas signs and lights being put up. They were able to protest and get that over turned. ON the flip side the Jewish residents were able to publically display a menorah. As a society, people are being more intolerant of other faiths as of lately. Me I embrace all sorts of faiths and have good understandings with many.
Nope again. Allowing trips to see Santa doesn't mean schools must allow trips to see virtually anybody.
Just watch, they'll try. I don't have that much confidence in our schools. Some freak teacher will decide visiting someone like Sun Myung Moon, or worse, is just peachy.
School traditions are over the top? Let me guess, Varsity home coming which is a tradition in many schools are over the top right? Since when. I also did not mention the issue as a school tradition. Also the comments I made are not anti Semitic. For the most part the school respected the wishes.
I said some good stuff like how the students should have went during non school hours or weekends, or if not privately fund raise the money on their own instead of using school funds to see Santa. I Remember a story out here in Upstate NY where Jewish residents protested about Merry Xmas signs and lights being put up. They were able to protest and get that over turned. ON the flip side the Jewish residents were able to publically display a menorah. As a society, people are being more intolerant of other faiths as of lately. Me I embrace all sorts of faiths and have good understandings with many.
I'd like a link to that story please. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find idiots on any side of the religious divide.
The Jewish kids were put in a situation where they were forced to take action. Either go and participate, or refuse to participate. Either way, a lose-lose situation.
A tree doesn't make you do anything.
I am Jewish. They live in America. So do I. Deal with it.
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