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^I can honestly say that my own city of Atlanta would be similar to Birmingham had our leaders not made the investment in MARTA. By Birmingham, I mean regressive, without newcomers and even poorer and more dangerous. And oh yea, the Olympics.
Imagine...a Detroit subway. Well-policed, modern and fast. Watch people move in.
The reason I came to this thread (and it might be considered trolling) is that, here in Atlanta, we're possibly about to elect a pretty shady character for mayor who's got some black racists (I call them as they are) rabidly supporting him. The comparison has been drawn by some between the upcoming administration and Detroit, and while THAT is obviously a fair distance from reality, he does remind me a little bit of Kwame in his arrogance and slickness. Surely you Detroiters know the effects of letting a man browbeat the city into electing him...
No it helps control the fall. I lived on the west side of Chicago and it would be even worse if people could not get out. Ghettos are not places overflowing with jobs. Public transit in Chicago allows low income folks to get to work or school in places other than nearby communities. So you might live on the west side of Chicago and hop the green line to work downtown or perhaps in the nearby burb of Oak park.
It also helps make Chicago attractive to higher income people. They can have a nice house with a big lawn out in the burbs and work downtown without a nasty drive. They can spend money in the city for lunch or perhaps a play after work. Both the green and blue lines are packed with downtown workers during rush and many of them live in the nearby west burbs.
Honestly a bus is not a good substitute for rapid transit. In fact during rush hour the el system is faster than a car. You need rapid transit for long or longish hauls(>10 miles) and buses for local service.
Anyway the reason why the west and south-side remain messed up is because people that have worked out of poverty move to nicer areas and people who have income do not wish to move into bad areas. Public transit wont fix things but it can help stabilize things quite a bit. My grandmother and her friends used public transit in that rough neighborhood and it gave them a measure of Independence not waiting for someone to drive them.
Sure, rapid transit helps people get out of ghettos, but it sure as hell didn't keep the ghettos from starting in the first place. I can't imagine how new rapid transit would cure Detroit's poverty if having two el lines for 100 years didn't save Austin and E/W Garfield Park.
Providing rapid transit for commuters from nearby suburbs is a great idea, but doesn't help the neighborhoods that they run through. It enables some of the wealthy and middle-class to come to Chicago and spend their money from time to time, but I think the real problem is that they vacated Chicago in the first place.
Rapid transit is a great service for the residents of a city, if it's economically feasible, but from my own experience and from seeing posts on this board, it's not a great draw for newcomers. Many people move from rural areas, suburbs, or less-dense cities, and would love to park their Hummer in a giant lot in front of the Sears Tower or their high-rise condo in Edgewater if it was possible. You can also see from my previous example that having great service to downtown hasn't encouraged many new people to move to Lawndale or Washington Park.
Sorry this ended up being all about Chicago. Hopefully you Detroit people can see the point I'm making: rapid transit will not (on its own) save Detroit.
Sure, rapid transit helps people get out of ghettos, but it sure as hell didn't keep the ghettos from starting in the first place. I can't imagine how new rapid transit would cure Detroit's poverty if having two el lines for 100 years didn't save Austin and E/W Garfield Park.
Providing rapid transit for commuters from nearby suburbs is a great idea, but doesn't help the neighborhoods that they run through. It enables some of the wealthy and middle-class to come to Chicago and spend their money from time to time, but I think the real problem is that they vacated Chicago in the first place.
Rapid transit is a great service for the residents of a city, if it's economically feasible, but from my own experience and from seeing posts on this board, it's not a great draw for newcomers. Many people move from rural areas, suburbs, or less-dense cities, and would love to park their Hummer in a giant lot in front of the Sears Tower or their high-rise condo in Edgewater if it was possible. You can also see from my previous example that having great service to downtown hasn't encouraged many new people to move to Lawndale or Washington Park.
Sorry this ended up being all about Chicago. Hopefully you Detroit people can see the point I'm making: rapid transit will not (on its own) save Detroit.
I lived in Garfield park and yes rapid transit will not stop a ghetto from forming or cure one that has. Ghettos are sadly a normal part of life. Even 19th century cities had Ghettos. Today’s ghetto are probably worse due to the fact that the automobile allowed middle class people to leave behind the poor(before then it was a bit more mixed esp. in the black community where no matter how much you made you still wouldn’t be allowed in white areas). What happened in the 60ies\70ies and to a lesser extent today is not just white flight but affluent black flight as well.
What rapid transit does is help the overall economy of the city. If suburban\north side\near Southside people didn't go work and play downtown we would be in an even bigger world of hurt. Not only would Chicago lack their property taxes, but their sales taxes as well. Plus property and other taxes on their employers. Not to mention their employment and spending keeps other low income folks employed (security guards, receptionist, sectaries, cashiers, and so on). Native Chicagoans really don't use downtown near as much as those workers.
There frankly is no way that downtown Chicago could exist without rapid transit. The majority of the people working downtown do not drive there. There isn't enough parking to hold skyscrapers full of people and driving from downtown at rush hour could be a sign of mental illness. Downtown would be a much less dense place. Granted our roads would clear a bit faster but we would have a lot less economic activity to show for it. Downtown Chicago is the 2nd biggest employment center in the state!
If low income folk can't get to\from work they become no income folk. Mind you I know some people that commute from the south side of Chicago to palatine for work! Ghettos offer low income people one good thing and that is low rents\housing costs. In addition, services for the poor/low income are often located in or near them. You can't expect to pay people minimum wage and expect them to live outside of a ghetto or at least a low rent place. A low income worker with a family would not be able to afford enough space downtown or just about anywhere nearby for their family.
Rapid transit helps lower income people get to work or even do everyday things. For instance one of grandma's homemakers has to get downtown to pick up her check or get training (stupid company).
Until recently she did not have a car (and frankly the car she barely affords now is 15 years old and not in the best of condition). If she had to take the bus all the way she would first need to take a bus that drops her off at the depot (about a 20 min trip) then take another bus down town. It would take 93 mins total and mind you this is one way!
If she took the red line (which is located at the same spot where the bus to take her home or downtown is). It would take 73 min(the depo for the bus downtown and the red line are in the same place). About 20 mins faster and mind you it could be a tad faster on both routes if I had here walk a little longer and you have to remember that the bus is going to be just as stuck in traffic as a car so if I had chosen different times (i.e. have her arrive at 9:00 instead of 10:00) the bus only trip would get worse.
If she could have taken metra(our commuter railroad) the trip would be even faster at 58mins total but more expensive than the red line. Unfortunately there is no metra stop near where she lives so she would have needed someone to drive her to the station. Now that she has a car this is an option and it is cheaper than parking downtown.
Time is important to everyone esp. someone dealing with a sick mother at home that needs 24 hour care.
In addition without the CTA she would not have been able to work extra for my grandma much less get to her client who lives a bit further north and she would never have afforded the car! The three times the car has been unable to carry her in the last 6 months would have been worse if she could not get to work at all. Granted she did use the bus system, but if she were limited to the buses only she would unable to take clients near the red line due to excessive travel time or be able to find other work near it.
Rapid transit widens the area where it is possible to get a job without a car for the poor. I knew someone who worked in Barrington and lived in Austin! I knew two others that lived in bronezevile and used the green line to get to the Metra train to Barrington(but they were not low income). Imagine how much poorer thoose ghettos would be if no one could get to downtown or to the burbs. Rapid transit crosses the vast ocean of unemployment between their ghettos and work. They sure as heck wouldn't be as likely to find a job near where they live.
Where are all of these people going to work if they move in? The subway?
Atlanta has/had more jobs, and also (I imagine) a greater problem with vehicular traffic, since the city isn't half-empty.
Let's say you have an employeer and he is doing well in the city. So well he needs to hire more employees. However his parking lot is full. Now he needs to move and might choose to move out of the city.
However lets say that an employer or merchant has access to good public transit. Now he can delay moving due to parking because some people can use transit there.
Busses are a flexible form of transit but they have weaknesses. They are not as fast as rail and much easier to foul up. All you need is for an accident to take place on the street and the bus is delayed. Trains have their problems but their problems are much more under the control of the company that operates them. Busses are subject to both company error and outside forces.
If you wait until jobs appear to put in transit they never will. Parking and traffic are forces that will push back upon more development. As much as I love my car and love driving even I have to admit that parking lots are a money looser for both employers(who must keep them repaired,cleared) and merchants. They only have them because they need them.
Rapid transit is an enabler. It wont solve your problem but it helps create positive conditions for denser growth. An economy is rather like a nuclear reaction. Until you reach a critcal mass not much happens then boom. If employers are not limited to comfortable driving times to find qualified employees(i.e. You are not going to find many degreed people in Garfield Park vs. Oak Park) then they can stay put as they grow. If people that are unable to drive(the poor, the old, the handicapped, the young) can get out more often they can spend a bit more cash in a lot more places and so on.
giving " honest and truthful" opinions "regardless of what any moderator wants" ! Someone used words like "poor uneducated black folks", descibing Detroit. . Some people would say this is descriminatory . It is truthful. If I may ask, What's the latest on
Grosse Point ? I never heard of it before 2 weeks ago, and I read the "N.Y. Times article" yesterday here. It seems like the place to move to , as Chicago only has the DePaul area that is good, and prices there are not reasonable. We want architecture, and NICE looking people. My wife wants nice weather though. I can go up to $300 grand . thanks
From what I read, he worked to get more blacks into the Detroit Police Department and helped increase more political power among blacks.
If you did live in Detroit during the Young years, please explain to me what he did that I am not finding in the research.
BTW, I'm 23, hardly a "kid".
Trust me, 23 years from now, you will realize, 23 is still a kid.
giving " honest and truthful" opinions "regardless of what any moderator wants" ! Someone used words like "poor uneducated black folks", descibing Detroit. . Some people would say this is descriminatory . It is truthful. If I may ask, What's the latest on
Grosse Point ? I never heard of it before 2 weeks ago, and I read the "N.Y. Times article" yesterday here. It seems like the place to move to , as Chicago only has the DePaul area that is good, and prices there are not reasonable. We want architecture, and NICE looking people. My wife wants nice weather though. I can go up to $300 grand . thanks
Then how did many African-Americans become poor and uneducated? Why does anyone drop out of school? Why is it that schools do not educate people as well as they should? Why aren't things found out at an early age before things get worse? I say the problem starts out young and early. That is when things should be done, not at age 16, but at age 4 or 5. Why not try to improve Detroit. I am not satisfied to let Detroit rot. That is just giving up. What about the people who want to be in Detroiit, and to see things improve?
Location: Unlike most on CD, I'm not afraid to give my location: Milwaukee, WI.
1,790 posts, read 4,157,262 times
Reputation: 4094
[LEFT]Races in Detroit:
Black (81.6%)
White Non-Hispanic (10.5%)
Hispanic (5.0%)
Other race (2.5%)
Two or more races (2.3%)
American Indian (0.9%)
[/LEFT]
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life in Detroit. I want to applaud you posters on
