Future of the QLine Expansion?

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

Q line was the brain child of private enterprise, not Duggan. Neither credit nor blame can be assigned to Duggan for the Q line.

the entire concept is the problem. At at grade system is not workable here. At grade systems must travel at the speed limit and obey traffic signals etc. Even giving them priority at the lights (which is not always practical to do) helps only a little. they will still have the issues of cars turning left, gridlock, emergency vehicles and vehicles running the lights. they will still need to slow or stop to make certain the intersection is clear. A light is not a barricade and the risk is too high. If you want to see how often people run red lights in Downtown, go stand at the Michigan Ave/Griswald/ Lafayette intersection for half an hour. When a train with priority approaches the light will suddenly turn red, often out of its normal time pattern. This increases the likelihood of someone running a light.

Elevated or below grade systems are not so limited. They travel over or under intersections and so do not have to stop and do not get hit.

Also no one parks on elevated or below grade lines and it is rare anyone walks out onto the tracks. Now, I see a lot of vehicles parked on the tracks. Often it is emergency vehicles, or utility vehicles like lift trucks. In both cases, the train has to wait for them to move. It is becoming less common for idiots to park on the tracks illegally, but it still happens.

I was on a committee to study light rail options for a City I live in a while back. It was pretty clear from our investigations that at grade light rail is petty worthless. It is always considerably slower than driving. the group I worked with concluded that since elevated or below grade rail was not an option, the proposed system was impractical and we recommended the council not pursue it further. I think they went with dedicated bus lanes on some roads. This improved the bus schedule somewhat.

This is a great analysis. Thanks for sharing your experience. We already have most of the infrastructure in place for two commuter rail lines - Ann Arbor-Detroit and Pontiac-Detroit, that are completely separated from automobile traffic. If we could re-start one of those lines, I think people would see the benefit of such a service to the quality of life and dynamism of the region.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by usroute10

T. If we could re-start one of those lines, I think people would see the benefit of such a service to the quality of life and dynamism of the region.

I absolutely agree. One of the things the city did when I was on that committee was to ship us all over the place to see light rail systems that worked and did not work. In some cities, the impact was amazing. One was San Diego which is partly at grade and partly separated I think. At each stop a small bit of business appeared. A coffee shop, maybe a tavern. Then a gift shop, or news stand joined them. After a while maybe a small grocery store so people could pick up staples on the way home. Over time it grew into a neighborhood of sorts and people started wanting to live nearby. A lot of bad areas became revitalized. Over time, the growth spread out a bit. Some areas (the red Light District is one) went from scary bad places where you tried to avoid even parking your car there for an hour, to weekend destination location.

This impact was aided by other programs aimed at improving the areas, so it cannot all be attributed to the train. They implemented community oriented policing, inter-agency corporation, government initiated public involvement, etc.

In San Diego it took time. At first it did not do much, but as the rail service spread out, it started having a greater and greater impact. San Diego is the best example for me because it was 90 minutes away and I spent a lot of time there, so I watched it happen over about 15 years. I know we also went to San Jose and Dallas, probably three other places. Some were examples where rail did not work and some where it did work. I am pretty sure San Diego was the biggest success story. I have not spent more than a couple of days in San Diego in the past ten years, so I do not know whether the improvement boost continued, stalled or reverted. Hopefully I will get down there for a week or two again and have a chance to look around.

[michikawa]

Originally Posted by craig11152

I feel like an overhead system like the Chicago elevated would make sense. Especially since the People Mover already started the process.

Originally Posted by usroute10

This is a great analysis. Thanks for sharing your experience. We already have most of the infrastructure in place for two commuter rail lines - Ann Arbor-Detroit and Pontiac-Detroit, that are completely separated from automobile traffic. If we could re-start one of those lines, I think people would see the benefit of such a service to the quality of life and dynamism of the region.

If the city wants to create a foundation for a world class transportation system they need to run an additional People Mover line from Downtown to the Amtrak station in Midtown ASAP, and make plans for some kind of rapid transit (i.e. not buses or a tram) between Downtown, Corktown, and the airport. Additional People Mover trackage would be best, as it reduces intermodal transfers, but it's pricey to make elevated lines that run for miles (Vancouver has pulled it off many times however). With this layout, the central business districts/train depots/airports of Metro Detroit will be connected with two rapid transit systems with minimal transfers.


There's a role for Qline-esque trams on the major commercial corridors (Jefferson, Fort, Gratiot, Grand River, Kercheval, Mack, Livenois, etc.), as they'll be used to cement commercial development and aid mobility reduced people, but not provide rapid transit. These routes were baked into the urban plan when the original street car system was in place.

[Coldjensens]

People mover is dumb because it goes in a circle in one direction only. If your destination is in the opposite direction, you can always outwalk it. If you are going several stops you can usually out walk it. the need to just straighten it out and it iwll be much more useful.

[michikawa]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

People mover is dumb because it goes in a circle in one direction only. If your destination is in the opposite direction, you can always outwalk it. If you are going several stops you can usually out walk it. the need to just straighten it out and it iwll be much more useful.

Agreed, it's really a poor showcase for the technology, but one must remember that the thing has been running for 30+ years without major service interruptions. As far as outwalking it, it's true, but between October and March, it's certainly the more pleasent way to get around for the cost of ten minutes.


The current People Mover loop is not expandable and it was purposfully designed that way. Any additional People Mover services would shoehorned into an exsisting stations to provide a platform for transfers to the old loop. I've advocated making a cross platform at the Grand Circus station, so that the repair shop for the original cars on the old loop can still be utilized.

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by michikawa

Agreed, it's really a poor showcase for the technology, but one must remember that the thing has been running for 30+ years without major service interruptions. As far as outwalking it, it's true, but between October and March, it's certainly the more pleasent way to get around for the cost of ten minutes.


The current People Mover loop is not expandable and it was purposfully designed that way. Any additional People Mover services would shoehorned into an exsisting stations to provide a platform for transfers to the old loop. I've advocated making a cross platform at the Grand Circus station, so that the repair shop for the original cars on the old loop can still be utilized.

Not that it matters now, but the current People Mover loop is expandable, and an extension to Midtown and New Center was proposed by the original manager of the People Mover, Marsden Burger, in 2006. He proposed a two-way extension in which the People Mover routing would simulate a "tennis racket". You would have the one-way loop downtown that would be like the circular portion of the racket and a two-extension that would be like the handle of the racket.

Ankur Dholakia / The Detroit News
People Mover grows up
Proposal would extend route to New Center

A proposal by former People Mover manager Marsden Burger would extend the driverless tram three miles north to West Grand Boulevard, tying in to the Amtrak station and the campuses of Wayne State University, Detroit Medical Center and Henry Ford Hospital -- its final stop....

Without the lengthy federal process, Burger said the expansion could be built in four years. It would not require new operating funds, staff or vehicles, he said, since the underutilized system could handle the extra riders.

The extension would have two lanes to shuttle people between downtown and New Center. Burger would split the five two-car trams into single units -- the way they were meant to be used, he said.