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Baloney. What you see is not freedom, it is a juvenile lack of self discipline exacerbated by poor adult supervision. A kid who is not learning enough to get good grades in high school is not learning anything -- there is no learning going on at such an elementary level without first learning the basics at a level sufficient to master high school tests.
No wonder so much time needs to be wasted on remedial instruction when these young "original thinkers" get to college!
No, they're not learning to do what is on the test. That doesn't mean they aren't learning.
As to why colleges must remediate, that's because we keep dummying down school so more kids can get A's.
So if they are not learning even the watered down curriculum well enough to make A's and B's, how much can they be learning, really, about anything remotely tangential to the course?
So if they are not learning even the watered down curriculum well enough to make A's and B's, how much can they be learning, really, about anything remotely tangential to the course?
Sadly, I don't think the ability to regurgitate a watered down curriculum means they are learning (I swear I learend more with my D in chemistry in high school than my A students do today. Many of the labs we did are now AP labs.). Most of the time it just means they memorized what they had to to pass the test. Honestly, I think we bore some of our brighter kids to tears and I think they let their minds wander as a result. We are not challenging our kids. That would have parents storming the principal's office in droves because Johnny got....gasp...a B! A's used to be something you earned. They're really not anymore.
Sadly the curriculum is very watered down and that has resulted in thinking going out the window. The kids who memorize and regurgitate well, get their A's. Sometimes I think the ones who think are too busy thinking to get around to the memorization and regurgitation part. It's rarely my A students who figure out the puzzles I toss out there. It just isn't. I think that's because I didn't give them an answer to memorize. I can already tell you who will get the next puzzle I toss out in each class and they're not counted among my A students. You see, this question won't be on the test so it's of no interest to them. They're grade chasers. As I said before, A student questions start with What do I do to... and How do I.... C student questions start with Why does.... Of course they don't seem to get around to the how part, hence the C.
I wish A's meant what people seem to think they do. Unfortunately, they don't. GPA is nowhere near the whole story. Especially with the way things are watered down today. It's a lot easier to get A's today. But can they think? Usually, the answer is no. Don't be too impressed with A's. These days, they're nothing to be impressed about. I was absolutely stunned at how easy getting A's was for my last masters degree. Seriously, minimal effort and you had one. I chose to take a B in only one class and that was because my prof wanted too much of what I consider nit picky stuff on the final. I decided it wasn't worth the work because I wasn't going to get anything out of it (it was a tech course where the final project, which was to be presented, had to also be formatted EXACTLY as the prof wanted it formatted. I nixed the formatting.).
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-23-2013 at 07:28 PM..
The great thing about the math program through JHU and Stanford is that the students progress at their own speed--which can be greatly accelerated.
There are lots of options out there, even for those that go the public school route.
My son skipped 7th and 8th grade, and was still a few years ahead of his classmates in math when he started high school. He started taking junior college classes in high school.
I questioned some of my choices for him along the way, but he still raves about the CTY summer program, and he's happy with the career path he's chosen.
The kids that were in the gifted public school program were the brightest kids in our district, but they were "regular" kids for the most part. My son had unusual intellectual and artistic pursuits that he became absorbed in and while he enjoyed playing sports and playing with children his own age, he much preferred the company of highly intelligent adults. I started taking him to university lectures when he was around 7--which I received some grief from a few people for, but he just lit up when it was a topic he enjoyed. (It was not uncommon at Caltech lectures to see other young children, btw...)
Utilizing the help of an Educational Psychologist is a good idea, if/when you become overwhelmed.
This topic is a little confusing to me. As someone who lived in another country before moving to the US, I do not get why American parents(I'm assuming most people in this thread are American) are obsessed with the notion of IQ. It's unfortunate that it's this way since from what I'm gathering from this thread and my observations in real life with people bragging about how smart their child is, is that parents use those scores to size up their child and make all these predictions about their future potential. I remember an American of European descent told me what his IQ was like I was supposed to be impressed and all I could do is look at that person and ask myself "why did you just tell me this?". That same person also made it a point to tell everyone about how many A's he has accumulated. The people in his immediate family had a tendency to tell him how smart he was because of it and when he got less than an A he made it a point not show anyone. Why? Because it didn't fit in his view of what being intelligent is. It's unfortunate because this obsession gets passed onto their children and those children grow up thinking they're limited in their ability. In a lot of Asian countries, parenting styles are a lot different and are influenced by confucian philosophy. In those countries, parents put a lot more emphasis in pushing their children and teaching them that struggling through concepts is how they learn. If an American child struggles, then that child thinks of his or her self as being dumb and the people close to that child start questioning his or her intelligence. The only person I'm finding myself agreeing with consistently is Ivorytickler.
When you get to extremes, all bets are off but most are not in the extremes.
Tests and grades don't tell the whole story. They're all we have to go on so we run with them but life is not a series of tests and graded assignments. Yes, there is a positive correlation to grades and success in life but it's not as strong as people seem to think. I've seen valedictorians flunk out of college. These are people who are good at school and they can't cut college. I've seen D students wake up after high school and excel in college and beyond. I've seen "smart" peole flounder through life while someone of average intelligence finds success hand over fist. Yes, there are tendencies but they are just tendencies.
I have also seen people from both spectrums; I know 1 valedictorian who dropped out, she was actually burnt out, it was not a question of her intelligence. I also know several D students who ended up doing quite well in college and found success later in life. I feel that high school work is more rote and does not require much higher order thinking. Colleges and graduate schools usually require more than rote memorization. Depending on the field, most Masters programs require at least some thesis work.
Ivorytickler, it sounds like you are weary of obsessive A seeking students who care for nothing but grades. From my experience, D/F students either do not understand the material or do not care enough about the material to study it in the first place. IMO, this is just as bad if not worse than the grade hungry students.
Standardized tests and grades are not perfect, but there is no other way to separate students.
Who would you rather admit to college, a kid with a high SAT score and a perfect GPA or a kid with an average SAT and a barely passing GPA? The first kid might be an obsessive prick but he/she has a proven performance record and has shown that he/she has probably mastered everything they were taught in high school. The second kid either did not understand what they were taught or did not care enough to learn it.
Let's take a real world example. Which doctor would you hire to work for you? A doctor who was at the top of their class with near perfect board scores or one who was at the bottom of their class with poor board scores? As a patient, which doctor would you rather see?
This topic is a little confusing to me. As someone who lived in another country before moving to the US, I do not get why American parents(I'm assuming most people in this thread are American) are obsessed with the notion of IQ. It's unfortunate that it's this way since from what I'm gathering from this thread and my observations in real life with people bragging about how smart their child is, is that parents use those scores to size up their child and make all these predictions about their future potential. I remember an American of European descent told me what his IQ was like I was supposed to be impressed and all I could do is look at that person and ask myself "why did you just tell me this?". That same person also made it a point to tell everyone about how many A's he has accumulated. The people in his immediate family had a tendency to tell him how smart he was because of it and when he got less than an A he made it a point not show anyone. Why? Because it didn't fit in his view of what being intelligent is. It's unfortunate because this obsession gets passed onto their children and those children grow up thinking they're limited in their ability. In a lot of Asian countries, parenting styles are a lot different and are influenced by confucian philosophy. In those countries, parents put a lot more emphasis in pushing their children and teaching them that struggling through concepts is how they learn. If an American child struggles, then that child thinks of his or her self as being dumb and the people close to that child start questioning his or her intelligence. The only person I'm finding myself agreeing with consistently is Ivorytickler.
Read a few books about gifted education before you start criticizing. Highly gifted children in regular classroom's often drop out of high school. Some still go on to lead happy and productive lives--other's can become suicidal or become destructive in other ways--this was what the OP was probably hinting at early in the thread.
Imagine being a junior in high school, spending an hour a day learning to read as if you were a 2nd grader. That is essentially what these kids are faced with. They have a reading level 8, 10, or 12 years beyond their physical age. It would be mind numbingly boring. How they spend their time during the day can vary widely. My son spent 2nd grade reading independently and tutoring other kids... In his gifted 4th grade class his classmates were still counting with their fingers...
It's no different or less challenging than having a child with any other special need. And people clearly do think the parents are trying to live vicariously through their children. Someone with a child with a low IQ would never be criticized for getting additional resources for that child!
If you child was a gifted athlete, would you try and access the best coaching and training for him if that was what he wanted?
Parents don't run around telling people what their children's IQ score is. In this culture there is often peer pressure to not care about academics or to be perceived as "smart". The few weeks in the summer my son had to be around kids that had the same interests and capabilities as he did, were incredibly important to him. It was an opportunity to be pushed, and not be made fun of for being interested in logic, or learning to write code, etc.
Is 3 to young to be tested? I don't know. Some of the private highly gifted programs require early identification. If a child is identified even in 2nd grade, they're already too far behind to join.
This topic is a little confusing to me. As someone who lived in another country before moving to the US, I do not get why American parents(I'm assuming most people in this thread are American) are obsessed with the notion of IQ. It's unfortunate that it's this way since from what I'm gathering from this thread and my observations in real life with people bragging about how smart their child is, is that parents use those scores to size up their child and make all these predictions about their future potential. I remember an American of European descent told me what his IQ was like I was supposed to be impressed and all I could do is look at that person and ask myself "why did you just tell me this?". That same person also made it a point to tell everyone about how many A's he has accumulated. The people in his immediate family had a tendency to tell him how smart he was because of it and when he got less than an A he made it a point not show anyone. Why? Because it didn't fit in his view of what being intelligent is. It's unfortunate because this obsession gets passed onto their children and those children grow up thinking they're limited in their ability. In a lot of Asian countries, parenting styles are a lot different and are influenced by confucian philosophy. In those countries, parents put a lot more emphasis in pushing their children and teaching them that struggling through concepts is how they learn. If an American child struggles, then that child thinks of his or her self as being dumb and the people close to that child start questioning his or her intelligence. The only person I'm finding myself agreeing with consistently is Ivorytickler.
I really try to do this with my students and I deal with A LOT of parent complaints as a result. However, I'll keep doing it because I know that learning how to overcome obstacles is a great life skill to have. Needless to say, I am NOT a favorite teacher because I don't make it easy.
You are right about US parents. If what they believe about their children is true, then the national average for IQ would be around 140. Kids seem to come on two varieties. Gifted kids and special ed kids. They're either super smart or there is a physical reason they don't make the grade. I'm not sure why we're this way. My parents weren't. They knew our IQ's because it was routine to test back then but they never even told us let alone anyone else.
Somehow, we've reached the point where parents use their children to one up each other. Maybe these parents don't have enough of their own success so they're using their kids. I don't know. I don't get it and I've gotten caught up in it myself. When you're around other parents boasting about their kids as if they are their personal accomplishment, it's easy to get sucked in when you do have one who is up there. I have to remind myself that dd's accomplishments are hers not mine. That can be easier said than done with all the boasting parents tend to do. Apparently, all of our kids are geniuses or born with special needs and none are average. I always thought the intelligence curve was a bell curve. My bad. I guess it's a bathtub curve.
IMO, the only time it's necessary to talk about things like IQ is when there's a problem that needs to be solved. For example, it's relevent to talk about my nephew's IQ if discussing behavior problems because they go hand in hand for him (you would describe him as eccentric). Otherwise, it's not really relevent. And it's not a great predictor of outcomes either. I have a dd who tops the tests every time but just try getting that girl to actually study for a test. IQ is meaningless if you lack the skillset and initiative to use it. It's her choice and her life to live not mine anyway.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-24-2013 at 04:03 AM..
No, they're not learning to do what is on the test. That doesn't mean they aren't learning.
earlier response removed by author (this thread has now reached the point of being silly and incompetent)
Last edited by Hamish Forbes; 04-24-2013 at 05:38 AM..
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