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The statement in bold is very true. I think this is why I'm skeptical about gifted labels. I've gone far enough to see a lot of "gifted" people drop like flies. I've watched as my dd's peers have, for the most part, caught up to her. This has left me wondering what all the hoopla was about WRT her being gifted when she was 4. Sure, she's ahead of her peers but no by nearly as much as you'd think given the label stamped on her forehead. Makes me wonder if it was worth the social cost. She'd still be smart if she was taking geometry with her friends this year instead of pre-calc with kids she didn't grow up with. Seeing what I'm seeing now, I'm wondering if anything we did made any difference at all beyond the social implications for her.
I have done some reading on this in the past and I recall some studies that showed that only 50% of high-achievers were precocious as children. Those with verbal/lingual precocity seemed to have the highest correlation with high achievement later in life. This means that the other 50% of adults had either normal development or below-normal development as children, then caught up with their peers later in life.
I also read an article that stated that in America, up to 1/6 children are labeled as "gifted," which was substantially higher than in other countries. The argument was that the term "gifted" was becoming devalued in the US and that some of these kids were actually just on the higher end of normal on the bell curve.
Your daughter sounds like she may have actually been precocious, but many of her peers may have caught up. Who knows what difference it would have made if you had made different decisions? It's too late to do anything about it now, all that matters now is that she is well-adjusted, happy and on the path to success (however you define that).
I've gone far enough to see a lot of "gifted" people drop like flies.
Would you consider yourself to be one of these people? Of course, I have no idea how you view your own career.
In any case, it really doesn't matter at all what you have seen anecdotally, or at least claim to have seen. An entire branch of systematic study is devoted to questions of intelligence and success. The results of this work are readily available in a large body of peer-reviewed literature.
Last edited by Hamish Forbes; 04-25-2013 at 08:58 AM..
Would you consider yourself to be one of these people? Of course, I have no idea how you view your own career.
In any case, it really doesn't matter at all what you have seen anecdotally, or at least claim to have seen. An entire branch of systematic study is devoted to questions of intelligence and success. The results of this work are readily available in a large body of peer-reviewed literature.
No. I just like to observe people. I'm pretty average.
I grew up with kids who were "gifted" who are now average adults. I grew up with kids who were average and now are exceptional adults. I graduated at the top of my chemical engineering class in spite of being pretty typical. Unless you're in the top .00001%, I see drive mattering way more than raw intelligence. The funny thing is our society doesn't celebrate drive the way it does IQ. Drive without IQ can still win (I have a BIL who is incredibly successful who has an IQ of a flat 100. What he has is drive.). IQ without drive seems to be useless.
For all the hoopla surrounding gifted kids, I'm left asking "Where have all the gifted children gone" now that we're all adults. They just don't seem to turn into gifted adults. They seem to reach the finish line first and then blend into the woodwork as their peers catch up.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-25-2013 at 05:49 PM..
No. I just like to observe people. I'm pretty average.
I grew up with kids who were "gifted" who are now average adults. I grew up with kids who were average and now are exceptional adults. I graduated at the top of my chemical engineering class in spite of being pretty typical. Unless you're in the top .00001%, I see drive mattering way more than raw intelligence. The funny thing is our society doesn't celebrate drive the way it does IQ. Drive without IQ can still win (I have a BIL who is incredibly successful who has an IQ of a flat 100. What he has is drive.). IQ without drive seems to be useless.
For all the hoopla surrounding gifted kids, I'm left asking "Where have all the gifted children gone" now that we're all adults. They just don't seem to turn into gifted adults. They seem to reach the finish line first and then blend into the woodwork as their peers catch up.
It's not about the identification of being gifted that matters, it's about getting the appropriate education for every child. My son didn't receive the best education available, but I tried to cobble together enough alternative options for him to be pushed. If I had it to do over, I would have payed attention to the signs that there were issues much sooner than I did. He experienced reaching the state of "flow" enough times as a youngster that it became a vital requirement for the type of career path he chose. He has two advantages in his very competitive field, 1) he started taking college level courses in his field when he was 12 and many of his peers started between the ages of 18-20 and 2) he is able to become absorbed in his studies for prolonged periods, so he has a much deeper reservoir of information to pull from than many of his classmates that only do what is required to get good grades.
Getting the right mix of education and socialization is never going to be easy. And there are children that are identified as gifted that perhaps were inappropriately labeled, or that had great potential but weren't nurtured in the right environment of learning. And when "gifted" kids stumble in school or later in life, they need to learn their families will still love them and no one should ever expect to be perfect all the time.
No. I just like to observe people. I'm pretty average.
I grew up with kids who were "gifted" who are now average adults. I grew up with kids who were average and now are exceptional adults. I graduated at the top of my chemical engineering class in spite of being pretty typical. Unless you're in the top .00001%, I see drive mattering way more than raw intelligence. The funny thing is our society doesn't celebrate drive the way it does IQ. Drive without IQ can still win (I have a BIL who is incredibly successful who has an IQ of a flat 100. What he has is drive.). IQ without drive seems to be useless.
For all the hoopla surrounding gifted kids, I'm left asking "Where have all the gifted children gone" now that we're all adults. They just don't seem to turn into gifted adults. They seem to reach the finish line first and then blend into the woodwork as their peers catch up.
People who were gifted as children are still gifted as adults. You are confusing success with giftedness again. Gifted children may not grow up to be extraordinary successful adults because success is not solely dependent on giftedness but that does not mean that they are no longer gifted.
People who were gifted as children are still gifted as adults. You are confusing success with giftedness again. Gifted children may not grow up to be extraordinary successful adults because success is not solely dependent on giftedness but that does not mean that they are no longer gifted.
My measurement for success is whether or not a person can use their intellect to contribute to society in a way that is meaningful for them, and it's not based on gaining any particular status, or monetary gain.
People who were gifted as children are still gifted as adults. You are confusing success with giftedness again. Gifted children may not grow up to be extraordinary successful adults because success is not solely dependent on giftedness but that does not mean that they are no longer gifted.
If giftedness doesn't breed success, what good is it? If you can't use your gifts, you might as well not have them. If giving someone a G&T education yeilds no results, why bother? It seems to me people just want to wear the label and have their kids wear the label to have a label. That's just silly. Intelligence is as intelligence does not as intelligence could do if they felt like it. I don't care how high your IQ is. If you don't/can't use it, you might as well not have it. You certainly don't need more spent on your education, that's for sure.
My measurement for success is whether or not a person can use their intellect to contribute to society in a way that is meaningful for them, and it's not based on gaining any particular status, or monetary gain.
I would agree with this. My point is that when I look at the "gifted" kids in my graduating class and the "gifted" kids who have tracked with dd. They seem to get more average with time (including dd). I find myself wondering why she had to be in a special program and double promoted to keep her challenged when it all seems to even out in the end.
What good are college classes at 14? Does taking such classes early equate with learning the material better? I would think that someone who takes a college class at 22 and learns more would be way ahead of someone who took the same class at 14 and learned less. What I've found with dd is that being ahead today doesn't guarantee being ready for what's next. I'd rather she learn what she learns well than push her ahead just so she can be ahead??? Seriously, I'm not sure what the point in being ahead in school is anymore. It doesn't seem to have helped dd in the slightest. In fact, I think she would hae been happier if she'd just stayed with her friends. I wish I had a do over on this one.
FTR, I've known a lot of "gifted" kids because dd was in a school with a large G&T population. At 15, they're looking pretty average. AT 9, they all looked extremely intelligent. It really does seem like their peers are catching up.
Consider Ivory that at 15, looking pretty average is exactly what many gifted kids want to be. They want to be as popular as the next kid does. They don't want to stick out. Girls want to giggle about boys and try out nail polish. Boys want to be average fifteen year old boys. How does a desire to fit in have anything to do with their innate abilities?
I really am bewildered by the disdain in which you seem to hold G&T kids and programs. It almost seems like you have mastered the art of Doublethink. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. Smart is stupid?
No. I just like to observe people. I'm pretty average.
I grew up with kids who were "gifted" who are now average adults. I grew up with kids who were average and now are exceptional adults. I graduated at the top of my chemical engineering class in spite of being pretty typical. Unless you're in the top .00001%, I see drive mattering way more than raw intelligence. The funny thing is our society doesn't celebrate drive the way it does IQ. Drive without IQ can still win (I have a BIL who is incredibly successful who has an IQ of a flat 100. What he has is drive.). IQ without drive seems to be useless.
For all the hoopla surrounding gifted kids, I'm left asking "Where have all the gifted children gone" now that we're all adults. They just don't seem to turn into gifted adults. They seem to reach the finish line first and then blend into the woodwork as their peers catch up.
High IQ kids are in the most danger of not developing drive, because they're never asked to do anything difficult. Grit, drive, hard work don't develop in a vacuum, they're skills learned by failing and being asked to do hard things and having to work hard. So by refusing to give all kids the opportunity to learn it the smart kids are taught to be dropouts.
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