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How is anyone supposed to look through the rest of your posts, which all advocate a complete free-market approach to everything, and take you seriously on this issue? You don't show any interest in understanding the reasons public education is government-mandated and government-regulated in the first place, so how do you hope to find solutions? Your attitude basically boils down to "government sucks, let's destroy it." Good luck with that.
I have a libertarian streak, too. But I don't see the point in sitting around and ranting about how much government ruins everything, which is what you're doing, no matter how much psuedo-intellectual rhetoric you couch it in. Government is here to stay. How about we find solutions to make it work for us, instead of the other way around?
I stopped to take a look at this topic because the ideas of public schooling being a case of brain washing and churning out zombies is something i agree with. I agree that public schooling, or perhaps any huge institution, is more of an excercise in management than anything else. Critical thinking is unheard of, questioning anything is unheard of - the schools do an excellent job of masking their indoctrination of students/future robots under the guise of "teaching the fundamentals" and "core knowledge" when what theyre really doing is making sure you dont learn to think or question anything. If that were to happen then they iron-clad complacency that this country depends on may be threatened, which in turn would threaten the beast - capitalism. This is because capitalism depends on people believing they need things they do not need and replacing a potentially objective thought with a subjective false need. so if we stop brainwashing kids and readying them for eternal complacency (=mediocrity) then we are threatening capitalism. If i am "happy" when i get to acquire things that i have been made to feel i need in order to have an identity and feel whole, then i have no need for thinking, much less questioning anything. this would be a contradiction. when my false needs finally take over my whole being, the process of zombification is complete!
if people stopped buying crap because they realized they didnt need it, everything would fall apart. if we realized we didnt need the stuff, it would be because someone taught us to question things. if someone taught us to question things, it would be because our schools taught us to critically think. lucky for republicans and the entertainment industry, our schools dont do this.
to me one of the greatest ways to reveal a persons "intelligence" (capacity for critical thinking) is to see how egotistical that person is. this is easily done by observation. the need to flaunt oneself, to one-up the previous poster, to mete out high falutin quips designed to shame the previous poster and the always enjoyable correction of spelling and grammar - these are all things that reveal your true self FAR more than the words you type. you reveal yourself by putting others down. if you truly felt confident and proud of who you are, you would feel no need to criticize and judge others at best and put down and name call others, at worst. you are a dialectical dream! so, like with most threads or posts or topics, i am not sure the correct name, i read and sigh and move on, not because i am "intellectually" superior, but because i am depressed reading this. depressed because the peacock displays never end from the very people pounding the gravel at those they are calling stupid. your judgment is your weakness - you need ot flex your ego and be better than your fellow man. we are ALL idiotsand we are all geniuses. those who believe that kids are inherently "lazy" etc. are doing nothing more than displaying their own indoctrination that they so vehemently deny! if you grew up being indoctrinated into the status quo like a sheep, then you are lacking in the ability to think beyond the bounds taught to you. you can be like this whether you went to hardvard or alambama's community college. you can become a critical thinker on your own or at an ivy league - your identity is meaningless in this society anyway, you, WE, are defined by our possessions. the person who isnt is the "smart" one.
so enjoy finding all my misspellings and punctuation errors and have fun tearing my "argument" to shreds or whatever you will be prompted by your ego to do now - i didnt write all this to give birth to the next most intelligent internet post on earth or to feel that surge of power that comes with pseudo-intellectual masturbation. what i do think in my incoherent, imperfect mind is that we all need to take ourselves as individuals a WEE BIT less seriously! so youre smart? bid deal! go outside and stare at a bright green leaf in all its intricacy and mystery - feel the power of THAT, thats a big deal! we? we are here to reproduce, not much more than virus' on legs. its funny! peace to each of you!
p.s. i like your thoughts above, jim. here is my favorite quote:
"The splinter in your eye is the best magnifying-glass." - Theodor Adorno
Great post. I am impressed with your insights, especially the one concerning attempts at intimidation from posters seeking to silence anyone who speaks up against the status quo. Our society has clearly taken a wrong turn, and it is only by truthfully looking at where we are, and how we got here that we can do what is necessary to correct things.
An actuary, that is interesting. I do not advocate a complete free market approach as I do know human nature has to be regulated to some degree, however as an actuary should know, free markets do have a cycle that if interfered with cause the types of problems we have now. As far as why government mandates and regulates education, the answer is clear; it is how they teach their agenda to the masses. Tell me, why do you suppose there is such an upheaval is Europe against the Banking System and absolutely none here. It is because the masses here have not been able to figure out how badly they have been screwed, they have the same information, they just cannot process it. In Europe they understand all too well. As far as making government work, I am all for that, I just believe we have to get rid of the people who caused the problems. The definition of insanity is to continually do the same thing, and expect a different result.
First of all, I think it's cool that you actually want to have a discussion. Each of us made a snap judgment of the other that was partly accurate, partly not, but it's the internet and that's what happens. Now you're coming with some real points, rather than idle whining, so I'm willing to continue.
As for the bolded portion of your quote, well...yes and no. Schools exist partly to socialize the population, there's no doubt about that. I think you're in error to imply that's an inherently bad thing, though. "Democracy and Education" by John Dewey opened my eyes to this. I was fed up with school and saw it merely as a system that churned out faithful propagators of the status quo. So I made it a point to read the Dewey book, reasoning that it was the book that had the most influence on American education.
Anyway, Dewey goes to great lengths to convince the reader that education is what humans do to pass (hopefully, a better version of) civilization on to their successors. Thus, it has to be social.
Another poster came up with an interesting example about learning about a leaf so you can be enthralled when you stare at it. I do agree with him that education is going in this direction and producing citizens who have highly compartmentalized knowledge but no ability to connect it to anything outside that compartment. Dewey would have hated this, because a civilization is a set of values, traditions, and ideas, not a bunch of cogs that know just enough to operate their part of the machine.
I guess what I'm saying is the public education model in America is sound, but we just have some warped ideas about what to use it for. I think it's wrong to imply, for example, that because our current history (excuse me, "social studies") classes turn our kids into flagwaving morons, that the whole concept of goverment-regulated history classes is bereft.
I don't know if I'm really addressing your points. But I agree with you that this is an extremely important problem and that something has to change.
The real test the public education model is its success. In 2006 PISA compared test scores among several countries and U.S. average test scores in science were 17th out of 30 countries. In math they were 23 out of 27.
What is really telling is the report by TIMSS that reported average test scores in math and science among 4th graders were above average, 8th graders were about average, and 12 graders were below average in world standings. These test results would suggest that the public education system is taking reasonably intelligent children and after several years of "education" producing a somewhat defective product. As far as the social education being provided, I am equally unimpressed. IMO you cannot have a socially successful civilized population without a strong understanding of ethics and why they are important. It would be hard for anyone to look at today’s headlines and argue the position that we now have an ethical population. Without respect for rules and law, civilization degenerates. At the present time our society as well as our economy is disintegrating from the top down. If the general population adopts the standards of Government and Big Business we will have chaos.
The real test the public education model is its success. In 2006 PISA compared test scores among several countries and U.S. average test scores in science were 17th out of 30 countries. In math they were 23 out of 27.
What is really telling is the report by TIMSS that reported average test scores in math and science among 4th graders were above average, 8th graders were about average, and 12 graders were below average in world standings. These test results would suggest that the public education system is taking reasonably intelligent children and after several years of "education" producing a somewhat defective product. As far as the social education being provided, I am equally unimpressed. IMO you cannot have a socially successful civilized population without a strong understanding of ethics and why they are important. It would be hard for anyone to look at today’s headlines and argue the position that we now have an ethical population. Without respect for rules and law, civilization degenerates. At the present time our society as well as our economy is disintegrating from the top down. If the general population adopts the standards of Government and Big Business we will have chaos.
I've posted this before - this is why:
In a sincere but misguided pursuit of egalitarianism, public schools focus on equal educational outcomes as their goal. By definition, the majority of students can successfully achieve at a below average level so the top- and mid-level students have been dumbed down. Professor Singal elaborates in The Other Crisis in American Education:
"Perhaps most crucial, the sixties mentality, with its strong animus against what it defines as "elitism," has shifted the locus of concern in American education from high to low achievers. All over the country educators today typically judge themselves by how well they can reach the least-able student in the system, the slowest one in the class. Programs to help the culturally disadvantaged and the learning-disabled have proliferated, while those for the gifted receive no more than token interest.
The prevailing ideology holds that it is much better to give up the prospect of excellence than to take the chance of injuring any student's self-esteem. Instead of trying to spur children on to set high standards for themselves, teachers invest their energies in making sure that slow learners do not come to think of themselves as failures. These attitudes have become so ingrained that in conversations with teachers and administrators one often senses a virtual prejudice against bright students. There is at times an underlying feeling, never articulated, that such children start off with too many advantages, and that it would be just as well to hold them back until their less fortunate contemporaries catch up with them. At a minimum, the assumption goes, students of above-average ability will in due course find their way to classy colleges and thus don't need any special consideration from their schools.
In adopting this posture, one must remember, the education profession has simply been carrying out its social mandate. In the wake of the sixties the country seemed to be telling the schools that the prime mission now was to produce equality rather than excellence--to lift up those on the bottom, whether they were there because of race, class, ethnicity, or low ability. As the test scores tell us, the education establishment took this mission to heart. Those in the bottom quartile have shown slow but steady progress, while those in the top quartile have exhibited a sharp decline.Only since the appearance of A Nation at Risk, in 1983, with its warning about "a rising tide of mediocrity" sweeping over the schools, have we started to realize the sizable hidden cost that this current educational strategy has exacted." (Emphasis mine) The Other Crisis in American Education - 91.11
Ironically, the nearly single-minded focus on low-achievers has had the opposite effect on social and educational reform than the reformers had intended - it all but virtually guarantees that the only students who will be able to develop high potential are those who have the financial resources to do so, the financially successful and the wealthy, thereby assuring continued socioeconomic elitism - even more so now.
...And from Ed School Professor Paul George (University of Florida - College of Education), "...schools should become the focus of societal experimentation, the vehicle for movement toward increasing justice and equality in the society as a whole... Schools are not about taking each child as far as he or she can go. They're about redistributing the wealth of the future." Otherwise known as social justice education. THE LIBERAL ASSAULT ON EXCELLENCE | National Center for Policy Analysis
After participating in this forum for some years I have come to the conclusion that a great number of the posters here are incapable of rational and logical thought. They take 2+2 and believe the solution is 7. The question that begs to be answered is how did they get that way? My conclusion is that it is the public school system. The abstract teachings that pass for education, has created a populous that does not understand the basic fundamentals that are the building blocks of true knowledge. They do not understand history, they have no concept of philosophy, they cannot follow a simply line of reasoning, Most struggle with simple math, or constructing a sentence. They are unable to understand the basics of economics, and why we are in the trouble that we are. They believe the same government that has caused our problems is somehow the solution
I do find your post rather disturbing because you generalize and insert everyone in a simple pie like structure of ignorance. Please speak for yourself, stop generalizing and please stop concluding that the public school system is the real problem we Americans are not as smart as you believe we should be and perform...Phew!
I do understand that the government’s axis of power is with a citizen’s reach until--- Until what? Until some believed a "new" World Order is necessary to go forward. Who or what is this new order? We are under control right now...or at least most are under it but if we adjust our emotions and love and the spirit of plain ole doing the right thang we can basically do the right thang...
If you voted him in power and he is trying to take away a human individuality (yes it is a - minus). When it occurs we will be alone or I should say grouped in a large fixture that will and demands to be ruled or led by the larger of the voice.
That's a fact Jack...... If some want to be led then those would be within the public school system of teachings. There are other ways to "break" away from those exploits of our thinking process and that is just simply think outside the proverbial box.....Good luck because I do not think some are capable of doing a simple choice then selection without a push from outside sources.
I am just passin’ some home schooled, private school and public education onto those who need to be seen and not heard but believe in an open mind.
After participating in this forum for some years I have come to the conclusion that a great number of the posters here are incapable of rational and logical thought. They take 2+2 and believe the solution is 7.
I question your supposed experience being valid to pronounce this community of users incapable of rational thought. Who made you judge and jury?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
The question that begs to be answered is how did they get that way? My conclusion is that it is the public school system. The abstract teachings that pass for education, has created a populous that does not understand the basic fundamentals that are the building blocks of true knowledge.
You are generalizing. What else do you have to support this claim that public education is faulty besides your supposed breadth and depth of experience here on CD? Do you have any first hand experience with public education, beyond the role of a student?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
They do not understand history, they have no concept of philosophy,
Please enlighten us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
They do not understand history, they have no concept of philosophy, they cannot follow a simply line of reasoning, Most struggle with simple math, or constructing a sentence.
Yikes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom
They are unable to understand the basics of economics, and why we are in the trouble that we are. They believe the same government that has caused our problems is somehow the solution
Please elaborate. What is it about basic economics we lowly CD users do not understand?
I question your supposed experience being valid to pronounce this community of users incapable of rational thought. Who made you judge and jury?
You are generalizing. What else do you have to support this claim that public education is faulty besides your supposed breadth and depth of experience here on CD? Do you have any first hand experience with public education, beyond the role of a student?
Please enlighten us.
Yikes.
Please elaborate. What is it about basic economics we lowly CD users do not understand?
This was fun.
If you have an argument with the position, then you should make it. Simply infering that my observations are invalid, or asking for further proof is not an argument. Im glad you are having fun, but you are really not adding anything to the topic.
They do not understand history, they have no concept of philosophy, they cannot follow a simple line of reasoning, most struggle with simple math, or constructing a sentence.
You could use a little work yourself.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves on the public education topic. I went to a public school in rural America and was still able to go to a great engineering school and do very well.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves on the public education topic. I went to a public school in rural America and was still able to go to a great engineering school and do very well.
X2!! Went to a public school and still managed to graduate from an engineering school. I am also doing very well!
Sure, the public school systems has some issues. So does private and college for that matter.
If I were to blame one thing on any faults with education in general I would start with the parents.
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Sorry but I have to call you on this...
