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Yes, but at what expense? What about the alternatives; what if the Decembrists had succeeded in setting up a democracy? Russia had the know-how to develop and industrialize. It didn't need Stalin in order to achieve that. Without him, change might have been more gradual (or, not--we'll never know), but I don't think such extreme measures were necessary. And what about Lenin's role, with the New Economic Plan? His methods weren't so austere, yet gave some positive results.
Ruth, obviously if the Decembrists would have succeeded back in 1825, there would have been no need for the 1917 or Lenin or Stalin.
But they did not, so there was little alternative left, while Russia was running out of time.
And when it comes to Lenin, it's a mistake to think that he was all that more docile than Stalin. After all the "Red Terror" has been unleashed while he was in charge, not Stalin.
Ruth, obviously if the Decembrists would have succeeded back in 1825, there would have been no need for the 1917 or Lenin or Stalin.
But they did not, so there was little alternative left, while Russia was running out of time.
And when it comes to Lenin, it's a mistake to think that he was all that more docile than Stalin. After all the "Red Terror" has been unleashed while he was in charge, not Stalin.
Even if they've succeeded in their coup attempt - which is extremely unlikely considering they had no support whatsoever - they would either be destroyed trying to abolish serfdom (since this would turn the vast majority of landowners against them) or they would have to impose Military dictatorship and in the end, the people would beg for the tsar to come back.
You can't change the centuries of history and the mentality of the entire nation by force. You still end up with Stalin, only in the early XIX century setting.
I wouldn't take pre-teens there. A lot of things can go wrong, the streets are not as safe as they could be for one. After say 14 or so I think it would be a good thing and very enjoyable and adventurous for them especially if you get them off the beaten path. Both my daughters learned a lot about how to adapt and deal with daily adversity there. Great experience and they enjoyed it immensely.
Pre-teens have much higher chance to get killed in the US (remember 24 children killed at once in CT?), than in Russia due to widespread uncontrolled deadly weapon sales and US people treating their weapons as toys.
The most your pre-teens would risk in today's Russia cities is their wallet/bag stolen.
This is the first time I've heard about that December thing. Interesting. Maybe it would've meant good for us. General unrest and secession of Finland and Poland?
"To me, Russia is one of the world’s most fascinating places: 12 time zones of enigmatic vastness, unsurpassed natural beauty, a turbulent history, and a literary inheritance that could keep you supplied with masterpieces for a lifetime. I have been going there since the Eighties, spent decades struggling with its difficult language, made documentaries about it, and used it as inspiration for novels.
Since becoming a parent, I’ve often wondered when would be the right time to share my enthusiasm for Russia with my family. Until now, I’ve quailed at the logistical difficulty and the cost, and the impossibility of persuading my wife Hannah – who’s never been – that there’s more to a great holiday than a sunlounger and a colourful drink with an umbrella in it..."
It's very subjective and shallow as anything coming from English speaking countries about Russia.
I have traveled a lot in the UK and the US and yes, most cities have hotels with beds and showers, but you can easily encounter lot of poorly run hotels and unsafe places even in super expensive places like Boston, like no hot water in the evening in $200/per night room, and food poisoning in place like Whole Foods market. Go in the wrong direction in Boston in the evening and you will end up in something like Roxbury or Dorchester, where you get excellent chances to get robbed and/or shot.
So all this raving about Western superiority in comfort and safety especially considering US being developed world's #1 in mass murders is just a bunch of BS, really.
Even if they've succeeded in their coup attempt - which is extremely unlikely considering they had no support whatsoever - they would either be destroyed trying to abolish serfdom (since this would turn the vast majority of landowners against them) or they would have to impose Military dictatorship and in the end, the people would beg for the tsar to come back.
Ummagumma, the Decembrists WERE the landowners themselves, since they were from the upper class, but they were the ones that understood the debilitating effect of the serfdom on Russia both in moral and economic terms. They were not alone among the landowners, since they were the members of the "Northern" and "Southern" societies ( i.e. groups of people sharing similar ideas in different parts of the Russian empire.) So essentially it was not just an attempt of the "military coup," but reflection of split ideas among the Russian nobility.
The only reason the Decembrists didn't have sufficient support in the society was precisely because Russia didn't have a strong "middle class" at that point in time, which would have played a role of a leverage in deposing Tzar, in the same manner as it happened say in France. The Decembrists ( being originally from the upper level of aristocracy) didn't have anyone to back them up other than the soldiers that knew them as military commanders and trusted them; they couldn't count on mass support of peasantry, since peasantry en mass wouldn't even understand what these people were all about.
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You can't change the centuries of history and the mentality of the entire nation by force.
This is the first time I've heard about that December thing. Interesting. Maybe it would've meant good for us. General unrest and secession of Finland and Poland?
The Decembrists had their own ideas how to run the country and I don't think that the "secession of Finland and Poland" would have been "it." To begin with, keeping Poland under thumb was a matter of national security for Russians ( as the history taught them.) I am not sure about Finland and whether they regarded it as an essential issue, like, say, Caucasus ( I know so, I've read their plans regarding it.)
No, it's just simply if the Decembrists would have succeeded, Russia would have a been a totally different country in terms of development, much more similar to other European countries, with no need for Communist revolution and the rest.
... you can easily encounter lot of poorly run hotels and unsafe places even in super expensive places like Boston, like no hot water in the evening in $200/per night room, and food poisoning in place like Whole Foods market. Go in the wrong direction in Boston in the evening and you will end up in something like Roxbury or Dorchester, where you get excellent chances to get robbed and/or shot.
Sounds like someone had an unpleasant visit to Boston. Hint -- the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Complain to the front desk if something goes wrong with a hotel room. I lost hot water last year on a one-night stay in DC, and received a $100 credit on my bill after my complaint at check-out. Ask and ye shall receive. Whole Foods would also likely give you something after a well-worded complaint.
Roxbury is improving, but it is wise to stay north of the orange line. Dorchester is really a long, wrong turn. Big US cities do have rough neighborhoods, it is advisable to research them in advance.
Now back to the topic at hand, Russia.
I have been on vacation in Russia (also I lived and worked there for a couple years many moons ago). One thing that would make vacations easier would be streamlining the visa protocol, maybe a visa waiver for short visits from certain countries. Some hotels make it easy, but try getting a visa to stay in a private home -- it takes quite a bit of time and paperwork.
The Decembrists had their own ideas how to run the country and I don't think that the "secession of Finland and Poland" would have been "it." To begin with, keeping Poland under thumb was a matter of national security for Russians ( as the history taught them.) I am not sure about Finland and whether they regarded it as an essential issue, like, say, Caucasus ( I know so, I've read their plans regarding it.)
No, it's just simply if the Decembrists would have succeeded, Russia would have a been a totally different country in terms of development, much more similar to other European countries, with no need for Communist revolution and the rest.
Neither was the secession of Finland the bolshevik's idea, but it happened.
If the Decembrists would've succeeded, Finland had been a Grand Duchy for only 16 years. I don't think they had any plans. But with the abdication or ousting of the Czar would've ended the legal premise for the Grand Duchy.
Neither was the secession of Finland the bolshevik's idea, but it happened.
At that point the whole country was in turmoil, not just Finland.
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If the Decembrists would've succeeded, Finland had been a Grand Duchy for only 16 years. I don't think they had any plans. But with the abdication or ousting of the Czar would've ended the legal premise for the Grand Duchy.
But why?
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