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Are you implying that freedom of speech doesn't exist in any other place other than in the US?
Not at all.
I am saying that the US still has the greatest protection of speech of all nations.
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Originally Posted by Greysholic
That is simply not even remotely true.
Right. That's why I did not make any such assertion.
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Originally Posted by Greysholic
America's censorship is probably worse than any country in Western Europe, press freedom is frail, there's also internet surveillance, PATRIOT act, and the high level of police state. So how's Europe inferior to America in terms of personal freedom/civil liberties/democracy?
Despite all of those things, the US still protects speech to a greater extent than any nation in Europe, or anywhere else.
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Originally Posted by Greysholic
I'm not saying that the US is not a free country, just that free speech can have more than one "homes". And as of today, Europe seems like the cozier one.
Try saying something critical of a protected class in Europe. There are many restrictions on speech in Europe that simply do not exist in the US.
I get the impression that France might have more freedom of speech. I can't imagine for instance those Mohammed caricatures getting published in the US.
The French can also use swear words on TV etc.
People self-censor in the US. But, there is no legal prohibition against publishing cartoons of Mohamed or burning the Quran, or the US flag, etc...
When we speak of free speech and expression, we are referring to political and religious expression. Swear words alone are irrelevant to whether speech is free or restricted.
People self-censor in the US. But, there is no legal prohibition against publishing cartoons of Mohamed or burning the Quran, or the US flag, etc...
When we speak of free speech and expression, we are referring to political and religious expression. Swear words alone are irrelevant to whether speech is free or restricted.
Okay, but taking legal anything out of the picture would probably show that lots of societies have different social tolerances for 'obscene' language and depictions. I think the American public tends to be quite a bit more reactionary to these types of things, even if the laws technically allow a lot of wiggle room. Political correctness, as far as I know, can extend beyond just whatever the law officially says about it.
Okay, but taking legal anything out of the picture would probably show that lots of societies have different social tolerances for 'obscene' language and depictions. I think the American public tends to be quite a bit more reactionary to these types of things, even if the laws technically allow a lot of wiggle room. Political correctness, as far as I know, can extend beyond just whatever the law officially says about it.
No doubt the US is far more puritanical with respect to so-called 'obscene' language and depictions.
But, again, when we speak of free expression, we really are referring to political and religious expression.
But, that is not what the poster stated. The poster stated that Europe is the home of free speech. Free speech was born in Europe. But, it moved to and now resides in the US.
Who said that ? I find the idea that Free Speach resides only the US simply ridiculous. Just the fact that some words cannot be pronounced is a good example. Or the fact that nudity is not shown on public TV, and all the puritanism that remains (remember the Bill Clinton "love affair" ?)
I don't think there is one country with freedom of speach and the others without. It's not as simple as that. Sure you can't say some things in Europe on TV (although it is changing now, thanks to the immigrants, racism is becoming much less of a taboo) that can be said in the US, but if it means we don't have the KKK or other racist stuff, I'm fine with that.
I also believe political correctness was certainly born in the US.
No society is 100% free. There are rules everywhere, and they differ depending on the place, but the idea that someone comes and says "we are more free than you" is kinda idiotic, and more often that not, these words come from an American.
This is quite limited view of freedom of speach then.
Really? Political and Religious expression covers just about everything of importance. But, you think that because the US doesn't like gratuitous cuss words or nudity that free speech in the US is limited?
Ariete said that. Above in this thread. Go back and read the thread.
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Originally Posted by forgotten username
I find the idea that Free Speach resides only the US simply ridiculous. Just the fact that some words cannot be pronounced is a good example. Or the fact that nudity is not shown on public TV, and all the puritanism that remains (remember the Bill Clinton "love affair" ?)
That's special. So you can cuss and show nudity on TV in Europe, but, political and religious expression are restricted.
And you misunderstand (like so many) the issue in the Bill Clinton sex matter. Nobody cared that he got some sex on the side. They care that he lied about it in the context of an investigation of multiple sexual harrassment charges. How is it that this clear distinction too difficult for so many Europeans to grasp?
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Originally Posted by forgotten username
I don't think there is one country with freedom of speach and the others without. It's not as simple as that.
Nobody said it was that way or that simple.
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Originally Posted by forgotten username
Sure you can't say some things in Europe on TV (although it is changing now, thanks to the immigrants, racism is becoming much less of a taboo) that can be said in the US, but if it means we don't have the KKK or other racist stuff, I'm fine with that.
Good. You're fine with restricted political speech. So, why are you contesting this issue?
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Originally Posted by forgotten username
I also believe political correctness was certainly born in the US.
PC is a Marxist/Stalinist invention. Purely European in origin.
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Originally Posted by forgotten username
No society is 100% free. There are rules everywhere, and they differ depending on the place, but the idea that someone comes and says "we are more free than you" is kinda idiotic, and more often that not, these words come from an American.
Haha! How is it idiotic to point out the obvious truth? Some places are indeed more free than others.
Political and religious expression are not more restricted in most of Europe, either.
The thing is, we are all humans and live in societies with almost identical values, especially in the West. Thus all our societies have come up with ways to prevent things that are considered harmful to a peaceful society, for instance insults. The restrictions may be handled in different ways, but they are there. The line between what is OK and what is not is pretty much the same everywhere in the West.
There is no free speech anywhere and that is a good thing!
In the US in particular there is an additional, relatively resent limit to free speech. There is a lot of surveillance and communication is being monitored for keywords. And people who say certain things end up on certain lists, and the ones taking care of those things (secret services etc.) are outside the normal legal system. So you better watch what you are saying if you don't want to get on those shady organizations' radar. After all, once you are considered a potential terrorist (which is a very wide term these days), you can forget about your constitutional rights.
Really? Political and Religious expression covers just about everything of importance. But, you think that because the US doesn't like gratuitous cuss words or nudity that free speech in the US is limited?
it certainly is ! You cannot say or show anything then. So it's not 100% free.
I don't think political and religious matters are specially limited in Europe, do you have any examples ? Or at least I don't think they are that more limited than in the US. Also, why does the US president swear on the bible ? That means that he HAS do be a christian, right ? What if he wasn't ? So that is an example of religious freedom ? Explain that to me...
About political freedom: Why is it that US presidents can only be democrats or republicans ? Why isn't there a green party or a communist party ?
Also, Americans seem to me to be far more PC than Europeans in general. Why do they take offense when they get criticized ? Why do you assume it's a stalinist thing ?
About the Clinton thing: What has his "love" life to do with his ability to be a president ?
It is idiotic to say that you are the only place for freedom of speech because that means you consider the rest of the world to be restricted, when clearly it is not more restricted than you are in many fields, and sometimes less so.
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