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It wasn't meant to be great, it was meant to be dismissive. If you had read the thread, you'd have seen that. We're clearly at an impasse, and twice I've tried to leave this guy with his own opinion and perspective. But he, like you, hasn't gotten that, so he keeps coming back to lob ad hominems at me. It's apparent from his comments that he doesn't understand the fallacy of his "logic", so I just don't care to engage him any further.
It wasn't meant to be great, it was meant to be dismissive. If you had read the thread, you'd have seen that. We're clearly at an impasse, and twice I've tried to leave this guy with his own opinion and perspective. But he, like you, hasn't gotten that, so he keeps coming back to lob ad hominems at me. It's apparent from his comments that he doesn't understand the fallacy of his "logic", so I just don't care to engage him any further.
You have not associated any positive attributes in your description of overweight women. That's the bottom line. You can backtrack all you want and claim that you didn't mean all of them, but so far the best you can muster is that have to keep the house clean and dinner on time so they don't lose their man whom they must be lucky to be with because he's got so many better options. That's the conclusion I've drawn from reading your posts.
I have to question how many attractive women you actually know. You seem to have a deep resentment/jealousy of them, hence the vitriol. And even still, you don't blame them, you blame "the people who validate them", i.e men. Isn't that what your real problem is? That society is dominated by men and places expectations on women that you find unfair?
Whoa buddy, quite an imagination you have there.
I know a fair amount of beautiful and attractive women in the places I frequent, mostly classes I take, associations I attend, or church. I find that women who attend classes or these associations are people who are interested in improving themselves. Vain and self-centered people don't usually frequent places that are all about improving themselves or educating themselves.
I can only dredge up my distant memory to think of a beautiful woman I met who was "trophy wife" material. It's been so long. But on the top of my head I can think of several women who are, in my opinion, "fashion model" material but also smart, talented, and very unselfconscious about their beauty, as well as being genuinely sweet people.
But you want to assign all sorts of "vitriol" to my feeling of beautiful women, when in fact my "vitriol" is to people who waste their lives with idle time-wasting pursuits, and other people who push for that. I fully admit to that. I think it's a terrible waste of a life and I think it leads to much unhappiness. I think it's unforgivable to encourage someone else to waste their life like that. And this is so wrong of me? Really?
I see that you don't understand how that works. Too bad for you, but not my problem if you don't get it, but I think it says a lot about you that you don't.
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Not what I said. I said most men find obese women repulsive. To be attracted to them is strange. It doesn't bother me, it's just hard to understand. Some people like to eat monkey brains. It doesn't bother me, it's just hard to understand.
No, I don't believe you, sorry.
You said, "What is WRONG with you?" in describing your reaction to men who date fat women. (Emphasis mine.) This is more than casual, puzzled indifference to other men having a different taste than your own. Comparing it to eating cold monkey brains also conjures up something completely revolting and unnatural, not like, for example, eating cold asparagus, which might not be appealing to some but isn't something you'd see in a horror film and recoil from on sight.
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Actually, I'm not arguing, I'm just presenting my viewpoint. I've taken the position that society looks down on men who choose to date fat women. And I've been honest in stating that I've asked myself questions about them when I see such men in public. You, on the other hand, are getting borderline hysterical. It seems you are more bothered by someone holding an opinion different from yours.
I think I'm just incredulous at how you frame your arguments. It's pretty funny, really.
"Oh, I don't think this way, I just think most people do!" "Oh, I don't find fat women disgustingly repulsive, but I am adamant that most men do and as a matter of fact I wouldn't be caught dead in the company of one of these vile hambeasts, for fear that all my friends could see me!"
And as I write this, you are again going to imply that I'm "hysterical," and I guess in a way I am. I find you hysterical, hysterically transparent! LOL!
Sure, sure, sure. We get it. You don't feel anything negative whatsoever, but you argue over and over again about how repulsive these women are, and how there's something terribly WRONG with men who enable these repulsive creatures, but you don't want us to misunderstand you, it's not YOU who is repelled, you just think "society" is, it's not YOUR fault, it's "society," and you are just "presenting that viewpoint," oh yes, that's all it is!
LOL!
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I don't expect you to praise anyone. It was you who said we should just 'live our lives, stop condemning and get over it'. Does that not apply to you?
About something as superficial as how someone else's wife looks, yes.
I do get condemning of someone wasting their life, and others acting like that is a praiseworthy goal. You claimed that "society" viewed a man with a "trophy wife" (an idle but beautiful wife with no ambitions of her own) as a "status symbol." The way you phrased it, you made it sound like that could be a worthy goal for a man to have.
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I agree that those obsessed with their looks will eventually find themselves unhappy. You don't hear me defending people like this. But I would counter by saying that those obsessed about little more than their next meal end up unhappy, sad people as well.
And this is the funny part, that you automatically assume that a fat woman is only obsessed with her next meal. What facts do you have to back that up?
A "trophy wife," something you characterized in a somewhat favorable way, is by definition a woman who is a "trophy," arm candy, someone who is beautiful and idle and decorates the arm of her husband and reflects on him. We wouldn't call a wife who is a lawyer a "trophy" wife. We wouldn't call a hard-working stay-at-home mom a "trophy" wife. We wouldn't call a middle-aged farm wife a "trophy" wife. There's a whole lot that one can deduce by the idea that a "trophy wife" is a good thing (and you imply in the way you phrase it that it is, at least you find it somewhat understandable that men would want one and "society" would look up to him for having one). But a fat wife is just a wife with extra fat on her. Other than that, we know NOTHING about her, or her husband.
You are the one assuming all these things about her on top of her being overweight. And again that says something about YOU, not "society."
Last edited by elvira310; 11-18-2014 at 11:43 AM..
It wasn't meant to be great, it was meant to be dismissive. If you had read the thread, you'd have seen that. We're clearly at an impasse, and twice I've tried to leave this guy with his own opinion and perspective. But he, like you, hasn't gotten that, so he keeps coming back to lob ad hominems at me. It's apparent from his comments that he doesn't understand the fallacy of his "logic", so I just don't care to engage him any further.
If you want to be dismissive don't even reply. It doesn't get any more dismissive than that. As long as you keep providing fodder for people to critique I'm going to continue to critique it. That's sort of the way a conversation works, isn't it? Someone says something, others agree or disagree.
I have not made a single ad hominem attack toward you. Unless, of course, you consider disagreement with you and offering opinions that are counter to your own an ad hominem. Most of us just consider that basic conversation, though. As for the "fallacy" of my logic, I've noticed you haven't been able to answer it with logic of your own. Maybe I'm not the one who fails to understand.
You have not associated any positive attributes in your description of overweight women. That's the bottom line. You can backtrack all you want and claim that you didn't mean all of them, but so far the best you can muster is that have to keep the house clean and dinner on time so they don't lose their man whom they must be lucky to be with because he's got so many better options. That's the conclusion I've drawn from reading your posts.
This is true, I haven't. Why would I? I think society looks down on the men who date them. I would hardly be supporting my position by listing all of the positive attributes of overweight women.
I'm not backtracking at all, I stand by everything I've said so far. And yes, your conclusion is a fair one. In my experience, for many obese women with a thin partner, this is their situation.
I know a fair amount of beautiful and attractive women in the places I frequent, mostly classes I take, associations I attend, or church. I find that women who attend classes or these associations are people who are interested in improving themselves. Vain and self-centered people don't usually frequent places that are all about improving themselves or educating themselves.
I can only dredge up my distant memory to think of a beautiful woman I met who was "trophy wife" material. It's been so long. But on the top of my head I can think of several women who are, in my opinion, "fashion model" material but also smart, talented, and very unselfconscious about their beauty, as well as being genuinely sweet people.
But you want to assign all sorts of "vitriol" to my feeling of beautiful women, when in fact my "vitriol" is to people who waste their lives with idle time-wasting pursuits, and other people who push for that. I fully admit to that. I think it's a terrible waste of a life and I think it leads to much unhappiness. I think it's unforgivable to encourage someone else to waste their life like that. And this is so wrong of me? Really?
I see that you don't understand how that works. Too bad for you, but not my problem if you don't get it, but I think it says a lot about you that you don't.
I don't think it's wrong of you. In fact, we agree on this. I don't have much use for the type of people you describe, either. You just seemed to have a lot of resentment toward attractive women. In hindsight, I was presumptuous and that was unfair of me. I retract it.
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Originally Posted by elvira310
No, I don't believe you, sorry.
You said, "What is WRONG with you?" in describing your reaction to men who date fat women. (Emphasis mine.) This is more than casual, puzzled indifference to other men having a different taste than your own. Comparing it to eating cold monkey brains also conjures up something completely revolting and unnatural, not like, for example, eating cold asparagus, which might not be appealing to some but isn't something you'd see in a horror film and recoil from on sight.
I think I'm just incredulous at how you frame your arguments. It's pretty funny, really.
"Oh, I don't think this way, I just think most people do!" "Oh, I don't find fat women disgustingly repulsive, but I am adamant that most men do and as a matter of fact I wouldn't be caught dead in the company of one of these vile hambeasts, for fear that all my friends could see me!"
And as I write this, you are again going to imply that I'm "hysterical," and I guess in a way I am. I find you hysterical, hysterically transparent! LOL!
Sure, sure, sure. We get it. You don't feel anything negative whatsoever, but you argue over and over again about how repulsive these women are, and how there's something terribly WRONG with men who enable these repulsive creatures, but you don't want us to misunderstand you, it's not YOU who is repelled, you just think "society" is, it's not YOUR fault, it's "society," and you are just "presenting that viewpoint," oh yes, that's all it is!LOL!
Calm down a minute. You're mischaracterizing what I've said. As I mentioned earlier, this thread is not about what I think, it's about society's view. I don't deny that I share some of these views or that I find obese women repulsive, as do the vast majority of men. And sure, if I imagine them in a bikini, that's about as revolting as eating monkey brains. And yes, I do say to myself "what is wrong with you?" when I see thin men with them. I, unlike others, have been honest about all of that. Truthfully, it's not so much being bothered as it is amused. As I said, it doesn't impact my life, I wouldn't let it bother me.
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Originally Posted by elvira310
About something as superficial as how someone else's wife looks, yes.
I do get condemning of someone wasting their life, and others acting like that is a praiseworthy goal. You claimed that "society" viewed a man with a "trophy wife" (an idle but beautiful wife with no ambitions of her own) as a "status symbol." The way you phrased it, you made it sound like that could be a worthy goal for a man to have.
So, you admit you're being hypocritical; fair enough. I happen to think that a woman who eats herself to 350 lbs. is wasting her life, and since others act like it's a praiseworthy goal, I guess I'm allowed to condemn now, too.
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Originally Posted by elvira310
And this is the funny part, that you automatically assume that a fat woman is only obsessed with her next meal. What facts do you have to back that up?
How else do you get to be 350 lb or more? By thinking about and indulging in food, A LOT.
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Originally Posted by elvira310
A "trophy wife," something you characterized in a somewhat favorable way, is by definition a woman who is a "trophy," arm candy, someone who is beautiful and idle and decorates the arm of her husband and reflects on him. We wouldn't call a wife who is a lawyer a "trophy" wife. We wouldn't call a hard-working stay-at-home mom a "trophy" wife. We wouldn't call a middle-aged farm wife a "trophy" wife. There's a whole lot that one can deduce by the idea that a "trophy wife" is a good thing (and you imply in the way you phrase it that it is, at least you find it somewhat understandable that men would want one and "society" would look up to him for having one). But a fat wife is just a wife with extra fat on her. Other than that, we know NOTHING about her, or her husband.
You are the one assuming all these things about her on top of her being overweight. And again that says something about YOU, not "society."
Again, not what I said. I didn't characterize trophy wives in a favorable way. I said they're a status symbol, generally seen more favorably than fat wives. These are the facts of our society whether we like it or not. Fat women are seen as exactly that, "fat chicks", and little more. Is it fair? Of course not. Am I guilty of it? Yes, I am on occasion. I think virtually all of us are guilty of prejudging people at times. I'm not proud of that, but I'm willing to be honest about it here. When someone tells me they don't consider the appearance of other people, I know right away that I'm talking to someone who isn't being honest.
The last class reunion I went to was interesting. The "boys" who were the most vocal and insulting about "fat girls" in high school were all married to fat wives.
Funny how that happens.
Calm down a minute. You're mischaracterizing what I've said. As I mentioned earlier, this thread is not about what I think, it's about society's view.
What you think is bleeding through pretty vigorously, obviously.
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I don't deny that I share some of these views or that I find obese women repulsive, as do the vast majority of men. And sure, if I imagine them in a bikini, that's about as revolting as eating monkey brains. And yes, I do say to myself "what is wrong with you?" when I see thin men with them. I, unlike others, have been honest about all of that. Truthfully, it's not so much being bothered as it is amused. As I said, it doesn't impact my life, I wouldn't let it bother me.
You are still here arguing vigorously, and implying through your comments that there is something terribly, terribly wrong with men who date big women.
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So, you admit you're being hypocritical; fair enough.
I see. Either I must judge all, or judge none. Criticizing the judging of certain qualities means that I am a "hypocrite" if I ever judge anything else, ever.
"Don't be negative about that pedophile! What does he have to do with you?" "Don't look down on drinking and driving!" (actually I have been chastised for taking an anti-DUI stance. It takes all kinds.) There are some things, like judging the appearance of someone else's wife, that I find completely ridiculous. That doesn't mean that I am a hypocrite if I still judge other people for other actions that are completely in a different category.
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I happen to think that a woman who eats herself to 350 lbs. is wasting her life, and since others act like it's a praiseworthy goal, I guess I'm allowed to condemn now, too.
What else does a woman who is 350 lbs do with her life? How do you know?
The difference between "trophy wife" is it not only describes her appearance, it describes her role as a wife, and implies certain qualities about her.
But again, a fat wife is just a fat wife. It is her appearance only that we are talking about, not who she is. We don't know why she is fat (is it a health problem? baby fat that she hasn't gotten off yet? Weight gain due to stress that she's working to get off?), we don't know if she has a career, if she is a good mother, what other qualities she has. Only that she is fat.
Additionally, a woman certainly can be considered "fat" at a weight much lower than 350+ pounds. I would guess that a woman who is 20 lbs overweight would be looked down on as a "fat wife" by many men, and they would recoil at the thought of seeing her in a bikini. And certainly no self-respecting man who was shopping for a "trophy wife" would not settle for someone 20 lbs overweight! So we're not only talking about 350 lbs, but many other shapes and sizes.
I know of several women who are pretty heavy-duty. I don't know their weight, but judging by their girth and their height, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were 350.
They have health problems and they're 60+. I don't doubt that overeating is part of their problem, but it's not a simple matter of them being total gluttons either.
In all cases these women are good people, supportive wives and mothers, VERY smart, and productive and creative. A few of these women have been fat all of their lives, but still managed to accomplish many things. I wouldn't consider their lives to be a "waste."
But YOU know that, simply because they are 350+ lbs, that they are wasting their lives?
Again this says something about you.
And I don't see anyone here celebrating 350 lbs and saying that as long as she's 350+ all is good.
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How else do you get to be 350 lb or more? By thinking about and indulging in food, A LOT.
I don't know that to be the case, and neither do you. The women I know who are 350+ lbs may have, probably do have, some unhealthy dealings with food, but I don't see them shoveling down food all day, I see them working, studying, talking about family and doing many other worthwhile things.
A "trophy wife," while maybe not a bad person, is by definition not the kind of person who is studying, working hard, tending to her family, being nurturing and so forth. She is arm candy. That is her main job. If she is something other than a "trophy," then she is not a "trophy wife."
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Again, not what I said. I didn't characterize trophy wives in a favorable way. I said they're a status symbol, generally seen more favorably than fat wives. These are the facts of our society whether we like it or not.
Oh, I'm sure, YOU don't share that view! Oh never you!
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Fat women are seen as exactly that, "fat chicks", and little more. Is it fair? Of course not. Am I guilty of it? Yes, I am on occasion. I think virtually all of us are guilty of prejudging people at times. I'm not proud of that, but I'm willing to be honest about it here. When someone tells me they don't consider the appearance of other people, I know right away that I'm talking to someone who isn't being honest.
Everyone considers the appearance of others, but what you are doing is implying that anyone who does not share your taste is a freak or a weirdo (likes eating monkey brains).
And I think you were excusing the "trophy wife," and I also come to the conclusion that you would admire a man much more for having a "trophy wife," than you would if he had a fat wife. I think that says a lot about your values.
I don't believe that all of society would admire a man with a "trophy wife," because there are a lot of things associated with a trophy wife and most of them are not positive. She's shallow. She married him for money. She doesn't love him. She doesn't DO anything. She is there to hang onto his arm and be pretty, but she doesn't have much to contribute to the conversation. Many of "society" might also surmise that if given a chance, she'll have an affair with the tennis pro at the country club, because her husband is an old geezer who married her for her looks.
A fat wife, I think some of "society" might initially wonder why he didn't marry someone a little more "conventionally" pretty, but maybe she's a nice person (I know, in order to know that you'd have to get to know her ). Maybe she's smart and talented. Funny. An excellent mother. Caring. Any number of qualities COULD apply to a fat wife. Most of "society," if given these facts, would be far more likely to admire a man with a loving, caring, interesting, intelligent, but also fat wife, over an idle, empty-headed "trophy wife."
The women I know who are 350+ lbs may have, probably do have, some unhealthy dealings with food, but I don't see them shoveling down food all day, I see them working, studying, talking about family and doing many other worthwhile things.
Women..? As in plural?! Wow, I can't even begin to fathom where anyone would run into that many morbidly obese woman..
The last class reunion I went to was interesting. The "boys" who were the most vocal and insulting about "fat girls" in high school were all married to fat wives.
Funny how that happens.
This is me to a great extent. I had an attraction to overweight girls but for a long time, including while I was in high school I tried to suppress it. I even had a crush on one girl when I started my freshman year, and it seemed she was interested in me, too. The problem was she was a fattie and it was not cool to have a fat girlfriend in high school. Rather than be a friend and possibly have a great girlfriend I made fun of her with some of the other guys. Her and a couple other fat girls. Instead of making a friend I made an enemy.
Thankfully I grew out of that. It took until a broken engagement of a very rocky relationship with a toxic woman before I decided to open myself up to dating overweight women. I slowly adjusted to it. When my wife and I met she was not really overweight, so much as thick. She gained a lot of weight from having babies.
I've come full circle, though. My wife gained weight and I thought she was perfect. But the only constant in life is change. My wife has lost so much weight that I don't think either of us can accurately say I have a fat wife. Her work ethic and drive has been admirable. She is proof mysterious benefactor is laughably wrong about fat women. No person who sits around "obsessing about her next meal" could have accomplished what my wife has. It has taken a complete lifestyle overhaul, and she still has a long way to go, but her progress this far is nothing short of remarkable.
Here's a recent photo:
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