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I went and looked at Amtrak service between Orlando and Tampa and it's actually a BUS, not a TRAIN. That's why it takes so long! Where is the TRAIN between Orlando and Tampa?
There is train and bus service.
And sometimes it takes less than the time I quoted. I just looked again and the time quoted was 1:46.
So...we have trains already that run b/t Tampa and Orlando. It takes only 42 minutes more to use those trains.
Someone tell me why we are going to spend $2.5B to gain a 42 minute decrease in the time the current service takes, and if there is such a demand for this service, why isn't Amtrak running trains more often?
It is clear that many people posting in this forum have never lived anywhere with effective mass transit or rail. The whole point is to NOT rent a car and drive around the city. You should be able to take the high speed rail from Tampa to a terminal in Orlando then use the LYNX to travel around the city. Before the recreational automobile, all urban development was within walking distance of the train station or a street car line.
The VP of the US while a Senator used to take the train from Delaware to Washington DC and back everyday. You don't want to have to rent cars. You want commercial development and employment centers to spring up around train stations. In metropolitan DC, they are basically retrofitting all of the suburban sprawl (notably Fairfax County and Tyson's Corner) to have Metro access so people don't have to use their cars and clog up I-495. In NYC, it would be lunacy to think you would take a train to Grand Central Station then rent a car to drive around the city.
This can be argued until we are all blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that almost all economically successful major urban areas have rail access or rail transit of some sort. The Tampa-Orlando corridor is one of the last holdouts; I think that's why they were offered the money in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticTastes
As a state employee, I am not a fan of the new governor.
However, I always thought this project was short sighted. It would be economically foolish to pay to park my car in Tampa, take the train to Orlando, and then rent a car in Orlando.
The money would have best been spent developing the infrastructure at both ends, i.e. decent public transportation that presents a viable alternative to the private automobile.
U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood’s statement on Florida Governor Scott’s decision to decline high-speed rail dollars
February 16, 2011
WASHINGTON – U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today made the following statement regarding Florida Governor Rick Scott’s decision to decline high-speed rail dollars.
U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood: “We are extremely disappointed by Governor Rick Scott’s decision to walk away from the job creating and economic development benefits of high speed rail in Florida. We worked with the governor to make sure we eliminated all financial risk for the state, instead requiring private businesses competing for the project to assume cost overruns and operating expenses. It is projects like these that will help America out-build our global competitors and lay the foundation needed to win the future. This project could have supported thousands of good-paying jobs for Floridians and helped grow Florida businesses, all while alleviating congestion on Florida’s highways. Nevertheless, there is overwhelming demand for high speed rail in other states that are enthusiastic to receive Florida’s funding and the economic benefits it can deliver, such as manufacturing and construction jobs, as well as private development along its corridors.”
there are numerous stories out on the web about it, but he basically said...
1-It puts Fla taxpayers at risk due to expected cost overruns
2-Ridership estimates are overblown (the estimates of this line are close to that of the Acela line, which connects NY/Boston/DC)
3-It's a waste of taxpayer money
It is clear that many people posting in this forum have never lived anywhere with effective mass transit or rail. The whole point is to NOT rent a car and drive around the city. You should be able to take the high speed rail from Tampa to a terminal in Orlando then use the LYNX to travel around the city. Before the recreational automobile, all urban development was within walking distance of the train station or a street car line.
The VP of the US while a Senator used to take the train from Delaware to Washington DC and back everyday. You don't want to have to rent cars. You want commercial development and employment centers to spring up around train stations. In metropolitan DC, they are basically retrofitting all of the suburban sprawl (notably Fairfax County and Tyson's Corner) to have Metro access so people don't have to use their cars and clog up I-495. In NYC, it would be lunacy to think you would take a train to Grand Central Station then rent a car to drive around the city.
This can be argued until we are all blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that almost all economically successful major urban areas have rail access or rail transit of some sort. The Tampa-Orlando corridor is one of the last holdouts; I think that's why they were offered the money in the first place.
In theory, you're right. In practice? Not so much.
The thing is, cities in the south and west developed AFTER the automobile became a dominant transportation method. Cities in the south are sprawled. No one lives downtown and cities are not walkable. Tampa is not Boston. Houston is no NY. Miami is not Philadelphia. You can't step off a train in Tampa and get anywhere easily. Buses? Have you ever ridden a city bus? Even in places with the BEST bus service, it sucks. I've done it in many cities. Probably the best one is San Fran. You want to know my experience there? It took my 40 minutes to get 3-4 miles, and along the way, a bum got on and started shouting "***** WILLOW!" at a woman who was carrying a bunch of flowers.
The reality is, people will NOT get out of their cars to ride a train b/t Tampa and Orlando. Did you see my post above about Amtrak? Trains already exist and run b/t the two cities and are not much slower than the projected time of the HSR. If they're in demand, why aren't they in use? Why aren't there trains running every hour b/t the two cities?
I could support local light rail...I could maybe see that working to a degree. But this HSR line is a boondoggle, there is no other way around it. There is no need, there is no financial evidence that it would work, and it's a duplication of services already available.
Now that it is rejected what are the two Metros (Tampa, Orlando) going to do about transit? And **** Scott. Gosh every time we get a wacky person in charge of this state I am threatened to leave. SMH
In theory, you're right. In practice? Not so much.
The thing is, cities in the south and west developed AFTER the automobile became a dominant transportation method. Cities in the south are sprawled. No one lives downtown and cities are not walkable. Tampa is not Boston. Houston is no NY. Miami is not Philadelphia. You can't step off a train in Tampa and get anywhere easily. Buses? Have you ever ridden a city bus? Even in places with the BEST bus service, it sucks. I've done it in many cities. Probably the best one is San Fran. You want to know my experience there? It took my 40 minutes to get 3-4 miles, and along the way, a bum got on and started shouting "***** WILLOW!" at a woman who was carrying a bunch of flowers.
The reality is, people will NOT get out of their cars to ride a train b/t Tampa and Orlando. Did you see my post above about Amtrak? Trains already exist and run b/t the two cities and are not much slower than the projected time of the HSR. If they're in demand, why aren't they in use? Why aren't there trains running every hour b/t the two cities?
I could support local light rail...I could maybe see that working to a degree. But this HSR line is a boondoggle, there is no other way around it. There is no need, there is no financial evidence that it would work, and it's a duplication of services already available.
I'm sorry for your experiences. But a lot of what you are saying is just conjecture. Perhaps buses aren't particularly successful because they are stuck in traffic like everyone else. We are not talking about buses, we are talking about high speed rail funds that Florida, no Rick Scott, has turned down.
You talk about all of the cities that developed after rail. Actually this is false history. Many of these cities already had mass transit (notably streetcars) that was dismantled to force commuters into cars. Firestone, GM, and Standard Oil were actually hauled into federal court on collusion charges for doing this. So for these sprawling automobile metros with even lower population densities than Tampa and Orlando that are in question:
Miami (http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/rail_stations.asp - broken link) (in the same state as Tampa/Orlando) has three types of rail.
We are not talking about AMTRAK or Tri-Rail which shares tracks with freight trains. We are talking about High Speed Rail. Yes some of the above systems above are fixed, heavy rail. That is because the feds established a similar program to HSR for this mass transit 40 years ago. Miami took the last of the pot of money. But I do agree with you on one point. Floridians may not ride HSR. BART and DC Metro are successful, MARTA is mediocre to fail, Miami's Metrorail is a failure. So if HSR is not a success like MARTA and Metrofail, it won't be because rail transit doesn't work. It'll will be the ever-present recalcitrance that permeates every aspect of Florida development.
Similar systems work just fine in sprawling cities like San Fran/Oakland and Metro DC. The Florida HSR wouldn't be a success like MARTA and Metrofail because it is micromanaged by Southern hillbillies who couldn't negotiate the Montgomery Bus Boycott much less manage a HSR system. But the point might already be mute as Florida elected officials of both parties are already rallying to keep the money in Florida. Sorry Ranger Rick, but you know some areas in Florida have more pressing urban issues than what you find in Naples. Maybe you should have checked that pulse before you were sworn in.
All Scott is saying is he has no idea how to do it successfully. Past failures by other are not necessarily a predictor of what someone else may be able to accomplish. I would like to see the studies Scott has done that prove he can't make this work. I have to humble say I have made tons of money in my life buying, operating and selling other peoples failures. I have owned a number of bars, poolrooms, two machine shops, and numerous properties I have bought and sold for large profits. I never bought a successful business, I made them successful where others failed.
Who is to say we can't build the most successful rail system in the country? It poses a great challenge as well as a great opportunity. Scott is either a coward, a political stooge who waits to be told what to do, (The most likely answer), or just an inept. Either way, where are the 700,000 jobs he has promised. He never mentions any of his campaign promises anymore. The fact is, this may be the most unqualified governor in the country, scared to death of his job. Scared of the challenges, scared of the future he could be part of building. He will spend his time a governor hiding from any real responsibility. He is little more then a puppet and a stooge.
He has been governor for a few months now and he has never come out with any kind of plan or vision he sees for the State. He does not have a clue about being a governor and can't even fake it anymore. Instead of being excited about the possibilities of the rail system and what he could personally bring to it's success, he hides under his bed. I am sure that is where we will be able to find him the whole time he is in office, missing in action and afraid. I don't see any streets or buildings being named after this coward in the future. Just someone people the people of Florida will be trying to forget.
Even though I think this project is a stupid idea, I will say this...I don't like that Scott thinks he can just unilaterally turn down this money. He's not the king of Florida. This is something that needs to be done through the legislature.
That said...it's a dumb idea, and by the way...we're not the first state to turn this money down. Ohio and Wisconsin did too.
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