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Thats why I stopped posting on this thread. The ignorance is astounding.
I don't think Blacks in NYC sound Southern. I think their speech is mostly Northern with a bit of Southern pronunciations here and there. But overall Northern. Philly is a toss up. I think it's a middle ground with *maybe* a slight emphasis on more Southernisms but in my opinion even with sightly more glide deletion they still don't sound fully Southern. Boston Blacks don't sound Southern at all. Detroit Blacks are a toss up. Some sound fully Northern, some in between, some straight out of Alabama. In Chicago, I would say around 90% of Blacks sound Southern. Never been to Cleveland so can't comment. I met one Black guy from Cleveland and he sounded Northern. Pittsburgh, I feel Blacks there sound pretty Southern. Same with Indianapolis. In St. Louis they have a very unique dialect I would classify as Midland with slight emphasis on Southern, but from hearing STL Blacks I would say Midland is a fair category like Philly is. In Philly and STL I think Blacks aren't heavily Southern sounding.
New England Blacks don't sound Southern to me at all. And SOME NYC Blacks do exhibit slight glide deletion but some sound textbook NYC more than Whites do. Most Blacks in NYC have a Northern sound for sure.
In Milwaukee I have met very Northern sounding Blacks. Haven't ever been to Minnesota but so no comment there. Grand Rapids Blacks have that Southern thing going for the most part, but I would say Detroit isn't like that. I met some Blacks in the Dakotas who had Northern sounds as well.
See, I am not partial to thinking Whites are the only ones who can sound Northern. Blacks definitely can but I think in an effort to prove a point some people willingly overlook Southern pronunciations of certain words and this can cloud their judgment because they want to believe something isn't there. They think that simply going north of the Potomac causes a magical switch in Black voices despite the fact that the majority of Black families of the North have been there for about a century and segregated. NYC did have Great Migration families but an overwhelming number of New Yorkers who are Black have zero ties to the South. New York or Boston are not good examples to use.
I don't think Blacks in NYC sound Southern. I think their speech is mostly Northern with a bit of Southern pronunciations here and there. But overall Northern. Philly is a toss up. I think it's a middle ground with *maybe* a slight emphasis on more Southernisms but in my opinion even with sightly more glide deletion they still don't sound fully Southern. Boston Blacks don't sound Southern at all. Detroit Blacks are a toss up. Some sound fully Northern, some in between, some straight out of Alabama. In Chicago, I would say around 90% of Blacks sound Southern. Never been to Cleveland so can't comment. I met one Black guy from Cleveland and he sounded Northern. Pittsburgh, I feel Blacks there sound pretty Southern. Same with Indianapolis. In St. Louis they have a very unique dialect I would classify as Midland with slight emphasis on Southern, but from hearing STL Blacks I would say Midland is a fair category like Philly is. In Philly and STL I think Blacks aren't heavily Southern sounding.
New England Blacks don't sound Southern to me at all. And SOME NYC Blacks do exhibit slight glide deletion but some sound textbook NYC more than Whites do. Most Blacks in NYC have a Northern sound for sure.
In Milwaukee I have met very Northern sounding Blacks. Haven't ever been to Minnesota but so no comment there. Grand Rapids Blacks have that Southern thing going for the most part, but I would say Detroit isn't like that. I met some Blacks in the Dakotas who had Northern sounds as well.
See, I am not partial to thinking Whites are the only ones who can sound Northern. Blacks definitely can but I think in an effort to prove a point some people willingly overlook Southern pronunciations of certain words and this can cloud their judgment because they want to believe something isn't there. They think that simply going north of the Potomac causes a magical switch in Black voices despite the fact that the majority of Black families of the North have been there for about a century and segregated. NYC did have Great Migration families but an overwhelming number of New Yorkers who are Black have zero ties to the South. New York or Boston are not good examples to use.
So going by your inaccurate ears and horrible logic, Nelly and Chingy (who are both good examples of black St louis accents and both sound very southern) are both categorized as a "black mid land accents" which also according to you is the same category as black Philadelphia accents with examples like Kobe, Black Thought, Cuttino Mobley, Cassidy, Bernard Hopkins etc. to name a few. You are wrong and out of touch with reality man. Blacks from Philly sound northeastern. Plain and simple.
So going by your inaccurate ears and horrible logic, Nelly and Chingy (who are both good examples of black St louis accents and both sound very southern) are both categorized as a "black mid land accents" which also according to you is the same category as black Philadelphia accents with examples like Kobe, Black Thought, Cuttino Mobley, Cassidy, Bernard Hopkins etc. to name a few. You are wrong and out of touch with reality man. Blacks from Philly sound northeastern. Plain and simple.
No, going from linguistics, not my opinion which is what you do. A true textbook Philadelphia accent is Midland, not Northern. Maybe you want to jock ride NYC and pretend you speak in their dialect but someone with a perfect Philadelphia accent doesn't have a Northeastern accent, they have a Midland accent.
Explain to me, master of dialects how a Philadelphian Black person has a fully Northern dialect that even Whites don't have. Even Jim Cramer and Chris Matthews don't have Northern accents and no Philadelphia native has a Northern accent. Go look at a linguistic map. This is some basic, simple dialect factual stuff that can easily be found on Google. Now, if you really want to pretend that a dialect with "O" fronting and glide deletion is fully Northern, I can't stop you. Just know it's an idiotic thought.
Now please show me NYC Blacks and Boston Blacks (or Whites) with significant glide deletion and o fronting and then you'll prove to me that these characteristics exist in Northern accents. I will be waiting. But really you'll just come back with the same video clips of Black people saying "thaw-uh-ut" and "caw-uh-fee" while ignoring how they say "tahm" and "mahn". You are just a delusional NYC jock rider ashamed of his own culture.
Philadelphia is perfectly within Midland parameters. I don't even get why this is a discussion or point of contention. There is not one linguistic map that puts Philadelphia in the Northern region of American dialects.
I don't think Blacks in NYC sound Southern. I think their speech is mostly Northern with a bit of Southern pronunciations here and there. But overall Northern. Philly is a toss up. I think it's a middle ground with *maybe* a slight emphasis on more Southernisms but in my opinion even with sightly more glide deletion they still don't sound fully Southern. Boston Blacks don't sound Southern at all. Detroit Blacks are a toss up. Some sound fully Northern, some in between, some straight out of Alabama. In Chicago, I would say around 90% of Blacks sound Southern. Never been to Cleveland so can't comment. I met one Black guy from Cleveland and he sounded Northern. Pittsburgh, I feel Blacks there sound pretty Southern. Same with Indianapolis. In St. Louis they have a very unique dialect I would classify as Midland with slight emphasis on Southern, but from hearing STL Blacks I would say Midland is a fair category like Philly is. In Philly and STL I think Blacks aren't heavily Southern sounding.
Have you heard Blacks from STL like Chingy and Nelly? They sound real southern to me. More so than Philly Blacks, who are closer to NYC Blacks in accent. The whole Midland thing doesn't apply to Black Americans. As most Blacks outside of maybe NYC and Boston come from the South. To me, the Black Philly accent is like 70% Northern and 30% Southern.
Chingy speaks in a modified Southern Drawl. Like how he pronouces St Louis.
Bernard Hopkins comes from a similar socio-economic situation as Chingy in Philly and does not sound Southern. The only southern influence I see from BeHop is him saying ya'll. He sounds like a Black person from the Northeast.
Have you heard Blacks from STL like Chingy and Nelly? They sound real southern to me. More so than Philly Blacks, who are closer to NYC Blacks in accent. The whole Midland thing doesn't apply to Black Americans. As most Blacks outside of maybe NYC and Boston come from the South. To me, the Black Philly accent is like 70% Northern and 30% Southern.
Chingy speaks in a modified Southern Drawl. Like how he pronouces St Louis.
Bernard Hopkins comes from a similar socio-economic situation as Chingy in Philly and does not sound Southern. The only southern influence I see from BeHop is him saying ya'll. He sounds like a Black person from the Northeast.
You say the Midland thing doesn't apply to Blacks. Well that's funny. Can you cite sources? Because considering that most Black people in America have ties to the South, I find it hard to understand how a Black Philadelphian is going to sound MORE Northern than a White Philadelphian who has a much lower of having Southern roots. The way you see it, I guess only Northern and Southern dialects apply to Blacks. This is a fine and dandy theory, but how exactly in a Midland city would a Black person sound more Northern than a White person who very likely has no Southern background?
I love how you guys just come back with simple "no" responses. You don't break down dialect qualities, vowel sounds, glide deletion, etc. Nope. You just reply with opinion and say "I'm right!" and it ends up being a pissing contest. Come on, you can do better than that.
So my challenge to you folk who think a Black accent can only be Northern or Southern is the following:
Explain to me the lacking Southern qualities in these Black Philly accents. Show me a speaker who speaks textbook Philadelphian. Note: once glide deletion occurs in words like "my" or "time" or words with the letter i that doesn't precede the letter R, you have failed at showing a Philly dialect.
Explain how in a city where the Whites mostly have ties to immigrant populations not from the South, and that Blacks more than likely DO have ties to the South, how Blacks sound fully Northern than Whites in an in between Midland dialect that has characteristics of both North and South.
Have fun.
P.S. there is no Northeastern Black dialect. Blacks in Philadelphia have local pronunciations like "wooder" and also are rhotic. New York Blacks don't talk like this and it shows that the idea of Blacks being immune to developing Midland dialects is very stupid and just wishful thinking.
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