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Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL_Watch
Mixed to favorable opinions. PA is not one big monolithic state. There are common denominators that hold the state together, but the vast differences overshadow those commonalities.
A little East Coast, a little Midwest, a little Appalachia, but 100% Pennsylvania. It's a very unique place for sure.
People should understand that most of PA (sans Philadelphia and its sphere of influence) is a different world from NY or NJ. Politically aligned with the Upper Midwest, especially Michigan and Wisconsin, but totally different terrain-wise. Unless you are talking about Crawford and rural Erie Counties--flat by PA standards, lots of German heritage, agriculture, etc.
I'm not FROM PA, but I have family friends in the Philly metro area, I have toured Central PA and I know the Erie area.
To the bolded-
Only if you mean NYC and the north Jersey coast.
Much of PA and upstate NY AND small-town Jersey are very similar to each other. In fact, I still maintain that upstate NY and PA sans Philly are more alike than they are disparate; warts and all.
One thing that's beginning to bother me is the underestimation and underappreciation of Pennsylvania's cultural influence across a large area of the United States. Pennsylvania has influenced the cultures of other states and regions much more than the cultures of other states and regions have influenced Pennsylvania. In fact, much of the culture in Pennsylvania that's perceived to be "foreign" relative to the rest of the Northeast, and, thus, considered an "outside" influence, actually originated in Pennsylvania in the first place.
As just one example of what I'm talking about, everybody acts like the higher level of religiosity in Pennsylvania makes it more like a Southern state than a Northeastern state, without taking the faith into account. Religiosity in the South is dominated by Southern Baptists, and to a far lesser extent by Presbyterians in the old Southern colonies. (More on that shortly.) In Pennsylvania, religiosity is dominated by Catholics, and to a lesser extent Lutherans and Presbyterians, not to mention the Amish. Southern Baptists are virtually nonexistent in Pennsylvania.
As another example, do you know where all those Presbyterians in Virginia and the Carolinas came from? Many of them did go straight there from Scotland and northern England during the latter stages of migration, but the original Presbyterian settlements in the Southern colonies were started by Pennsylvanians who moved south after getting priced off their land. They followed the Great Wagon Road from Philadelphia and Harrisburg down the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia to the Carolina Piedmont. The influence of Pennsylvania Presbyterians is part of why those areas have kind of a "diet South" vibe to them, as opposed to the hard-core Southernness of the Virginia and North Carolina Tidewater, and the South Carolina Lowcountry. And it's no accident that there are towns named York, Lancaster, Chester and Carlisle within a short distance of each other in upstate South Carolina either.
As yet another example, whiskey. Western Pennsylvania was the epicenter of whiskey production in the United States until the Whiskey Rebellion, after which it moved to Kentucky and Tennessee. Not only did Pennsylvanians travel the Great Wagon Road into the Southern colonies, but they also traveled down the Ohio River and its many tributaries into the lower Midwest and the Mid-South, as well as the Wilderness Road through the Cumberland Gap. Much like the Shenandoah Valley and the Carolina Piedmont aren't as intensely Southern as the Virginia/North Carolina Tidewater and South Carolina Lowcountry, the Bluegress Region and Pennyroyal Plateau of Kentucky and the Highland Rim of middle Tennessee aren't as intensely Southern as the Jackson Purchase or the Mississippi Delta, partly due to Pennsylvania settlers.
In short, the thrust of cultural influence is not from the upper South to Pennsylvania, but from Pennsylvania to the upper South.
Pennsylvania might be starting to shed its Rust Belt reputation with the new factories opening up again thanks to our President's efforts. Fracking is a promising new industry in the state and steel may or may not be rebounding as we renegotiate some of the unfair trade agreements that allow China and Europe to flood America with their steel. Perhaps with fracking there will be a continued boom and more jobs for people without a college degree, like here in Louisiana where the oil and gas industry is big.
Geographically the state probably resembles West Virginia the most with the mountains and valleys and river valleys. I'd say that overall PA has more in common with Ohio and northern West Virginia than with New Jersey, New York, or Maryland.
Comparing PA and NJ I'm not sure which has a healthier economy today. Many people don't include Philadelphia or New Jersey in the Rust Belt but both Philly and most of Jersey have been hit hard by deindustrialization from unfair trade agreements and there is probably more overregulation in NJ hence making it harder for industries to stay there. The Jersey Turnpike is known for being lined with factories and refineries but I wonder how much of that remains operational today.
What do you base this on? Have you seen most of NY? It's not exactly all flat cornfields and sky scrapers up here either, man.
The idea that PA would be overall more like Ohio than NY is definitely the perspective of somebody not from the north.
I agree. The two are probably more similar to one another than either is to any other state, despite some glaring differences. Big, progressive cities in the SE, Appalachia, “rust belt” second cities, many areas of high urbanity and highly forested areas compared to other states (less sprawl). There are definitely differences, but they are basically sibling states.
I agree. The two are probably more similar to one another than either is to any other state, despite some glaring differences. Big, progressive cities in the SE, Appalachia, “rust belt” second cities, many areas of high urbanity and highly forested areas compared to other states (less sprawl). There are definitely differences, but they are basically sibling states.
As a PA native--agree completely. In my vast experience, Pennsylvanians are generally MUCH more likely to have very strong ties to states like New York, New Jersey and Maryland than to Ohio (either through work, family, relocation, college, frequent traveling, etc.), and the lack of strong connections is doubly true for West Virginia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi
In short, the thrust of cultural influence is not from the upper South to Pennsylvania, but from Pennsylvania to the upper South.
Great post! There's certainly a lot of ignorance about Pennsylvania's formative influence on surrounding regions and the extent to which it really had its own unique culture/attributes historically. Thanks for the synopsis.
Since we're clearing up misconceptions-- this is somewhat tangential but related in the sense of the ad nauseum labeling of Pennsylvania as "Rust Belt" and tying it in with the actual Midwest: the fact of the matter is that Pennsylvania is notably further along in a transition to a knowledge and service economy. Heck, even states like New Hampshire and Vermont have more employment in "blue-collar" industries.
Here is a ranking of Midwest and Northeast states by total "blue-collar" employment as a percentage of total employment (defined as manufacturing, mining & logging, and construction jobs by the Bureau of Labor Statistics):
% Blue-Collar Employment Overall (2016 Data) / National Rank
Yes, PA is much more like NY state and Maryland, than it is like Ohio. There is a fairly small part of eastern Ohio that is kind of similar to PA, but most of Ohio is pretty different than most of PA. West Virginia is more rugged and remote, and also quite different from most of PA, although there are certainly some towns that have a similar look architecturally. but beyond that quite different.
I'm from New York and feel "at home" when I'm in Pennsylvania. I literally don't even feel like an outsider. Granted, I haven't been further West than Lancaster.
What do you base this on? Have you seen most of NY? It's not exactly all flat cornfields and sky scrapers up here either, man.
The idea that PA would be overall more like Ohio than NY is definitely the perspective of somebody not from the north.
I've very familiar with Ohio and West Virginia and they have the same Rust Belt feel in western PA and Ohio's steel towns. A town like Braddock for example can easily me somewhere in northern Ohio, and southern PA's rolling farmland is honestly not too different than central and western Ohio. Besides PA, Ohio is the state with the next largest Amish and Mennonite population.
I admit I'm not very familiar with all of New York. My image of New York comes from New York City and Long Island and the people I've met from those places. NYC dominates the state culturally and politically so most of NY culture is defined by the city.
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