Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Additionally, with regard to Lake County, unless one lives in Eustis/Mount Dora or Clermont area, no one is commuting daily into town from there.
On the other hand, Volusia County cities like DeBary and Deltona have plenty of daily commuters -- heck, there is even a Sunrail station in DeBary -- but yet, because they're in Volusia County, they get thrown into the Daytona MSA. It's a very flawed measurement.
Sounds like it balances out population-wise though.
I don't think that one can underestimate the small presence that IBM already had in Raleigh prior to their commitment to RTP. IBM's commitment to RTP compelled the state to build that initial small stretch of I-40 from Raleigh to RTP, when it neither went east nor west of that stretch. That was hardly a coincidence and was probably a condition for RTP to land IBM. Raleigh truly owes its early years growth to that one company alone, as waves of transferees reached out to other IBMers who had already settled in Raleigh....and they told two friends, and they told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on. The rest, as they say, is history.
The IBMers who came primarily from NY demanded better schools and nicer resources and the city of Raleigh and Wake County responded. Wake County also consolidated its school system into one back in 1976, which put the path of its schools on a stronger foundation, while it took Durham County until 1992 to do the same.
As Raleigh/Wake was ascending and attracting more and more people, and becoming stronger and stronger, Durham's legacy economy started waning. While it is perfectly reasonable to understand why Durham didn't embrace RTP in the same way that Raleigh did in the early days, it turned out to be a costly mistake in hindsight. Of course there will be folks who think that it wasn't a mistake at all, but it's undeniable that Durham lost economic growth and opportunity for decades that nearly exclusively went to Raleigh/Wake.
I think you do need to give Durham a LITTLE more credit here. It was never the post-industrial crap-town as often portrayed. It was never Cary but it was also never Rocky Mount. It's always held its own and in the past decade especially has solidified itself as a "destination" within the region for both relocates from outside the area and intra-triangle migration to live and/or play. Does it attract as many transplants as Wake? No. But it's no slouch on a state-wide or nationwide scale in population growth that's for sure.
When people in Western Wake want to go to a ball-game; they go to DBAP. They want to see a broadway show?... they buy tickets for DPAC....do some mall-walking in a higher-end suburban shopping mall/district...they head to Southpoint. Heck I grew up in Western Wake in the 90s/early 2000s before Durham was "hip" and that was already the case back then!
All additional strong evidence of (as we agree)...how ridiculous it is that Raleigh/Cary and Durham/Chapel Hill are two separate MSAs.
I think you do need to give Durham a LITTLE more credit here. It was never the post-industrial crap-town as often portrayed. It was never Cary but it was also never Rocky Mount. It's always held its own and in the past decade especially has solidified itself as a "destination" within the region for both relocates from outside the area and intra-triangle migration to live and/or play. Does it attract as many transplants as Wake? No. But it's no slouch on a state-wide or nationwide scale in population growth that's for sure.
When people in Western Wake want to go to a ball-game; they go to DBAP. They want to see a broadway show?... they buy tickets for DPAC....do some mall-walking in a higher-end suburban shopping mall/district...they head to Southpoint. Heck I grew up in Western Wake in the 90s/early 2000s before Durham was "hip" and that was already the case back then!
All additional strong evidence of (as we agree)...how ridiculous it is that Raleigh/Cary and Durham/Chapel Hill are two separate MSAs.
Look, I am only painting a broad stroke story about why Wake blew up while Durham didn't in the early decades of RTP, despite all of developed RTP being in Durham County in those early decades. It's just some history, and not intended to be triggering. Back then, when the Triangle was measured in hundreds of thousands of people (not millions), the Wake>RTP/Durham County commute dynamic propped up the singular MSA designation of the Triangle. As Wake ballooned in population with its own rival employment centers, and with the development of the Wake side of RTP, the % of total commuters from Wake to Durham County shrunk.
No, Durham never was like Rocky Mount, and I never said that it was. Durham has Duke and that alone is enough to assure that it will never be a dying city.
Wake County provides more DPAC and DBAP season-ticket holders than any other county including Durham. Essentially Wake powers two downtowns.
^I don't know if this is backed up by data, but it sure is believable. Especially regarding DPAC, it would never be viable without Raleigh/Wake's population.
^I don't know if this is backed up by data, but it sure is believable. Especially regarding DPAC, it would never be viable without Raleigh/Wake's population.
It's honestly great that the secondary city in a metro gets that type of support from the larger city.
^I don't know if this is backed up by data, but it sure is believable. Especially regarding DPAC, it would never be viable without Raleigh/Wake's population.
Should Grand Rapid's MSA include either or both the Holland MSA or Muskegon MSA? I don't know anything about Muskegon, but I do know that Holland has economic connections to Grand Rapids through the commercial furniture industry. They are all part of the CSA, but should any be combined into the Grand Rapids MSA?
Should Grand Rapid's MSA include either or both the Holland MSA or Muskegon MSA? I don't know anything about Muskegon, but I do know that Holland has economic connections to Grand Rapids through the commercial furniture industry. They are all part of the CSA, but should any be combined into the Grand Rapids MSA?
So Grand Rapids is weird due to the population distribution. In the original 1990's alignment those 4 counties were considered the Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland Metropolitan area. The city of Holland is actually still in the Grand Rapids MSA. Holland is almost entirely in Ottawa County (pop. 290k) and about half of those residents are in Grand Rapids UA western burbs. The rest of the county is spread along the lakeshore with about 100k people around Holland itself, and another 50k people around Grand Haven. Grand Haven's population development blends up into Muskegon's UA and together have about 180k urbanized residents. Holland is a bigger hub for tier 1 and 2 auto parts suppliers, more than furniture. That's where the biggest source of cross commuting comes between the two urban areas.
The Holland MI Micropolitan area as it's called is actually Allegan County Michigan(pop. 118k) in which a small section of the city of Holland extends into. Even though the city of Holland is seated in Ottawa County, because it is by default the most populated city in Allegan County, it is so named the "Holland MI micropolitan area". Allegan County is a commuter county into both Kent and Ottawa Counties, and has quite a bit of exurban growth along those borders. It's entirely possible that it could be added back into the GR MSA at the next alignment. Though Allegan County is also a commuter county into the Kalamazoo MSA on it's southern border, so there may not be enough commuter growth to shift the county fully into GR's MSA.
As for Muskegon, even though part of it's urbanized/developed areas creep into Ottawa County it's largely self contained. The cross commuting for the Muskegon numbers are people crossing into Ottawa County for work, not Kent County. I don't think based on the current metrics used for calculating MSA's that it will be fully added into the GR MSA anytime soon.
The Grand Rapids MSA statistics are clear as mud lol.
Last edited by mjlo; 03-23-2020 at 09:31 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
