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My only point here is to cast a light on why some people take issue with sexual objectification, not to offer solutions to thwart sexual objectification, not to make charges, but to try to understand the underpinnings. The female body has been commodified since the dawn of human history. It will never change. It's right up there with death and taxes. I don't think there is any disagreement there, correct? It simply is. The only disagreement here, which I believe is more of a misunderstanding, is that the assumption in the OP is that people are being petty or puritanical. I think, again, this issue runs much deeper for feminists. There is good reason to take issue with sexual objectification even if there is not a direct solution*. We know it harms girls. These days it harms guys as well. But, as parents of girls we have to be mindful that we make sure she learns that she is more than her body. That her personal self worth and value as a human being is not dependent on either keeping it wrapped up for sale (ala burka, virginity, etc) or becoming something she can never naturally be (ala photoshopped victoria secret model). I don't see the problem in acknowledging these realities. I do see a problem with confusing them with sexuality, though.
*The only thing I can think of that could be a solution to our bizarre sexual worldview (here in the states at least) that I have personally experienced is sexual and body freedom. For example, burning man, rainbow, heck even nudist events. These are spaces where everyone can get their sexy on, but ime it's pretty equal between men and women and there is a desensitization to socially programmed commodifying of the human body. Follow?
Thank you. Although we have different points of view I learned from your point of view.
I can understand your fear, it's real. The world is not perfect but we all have to live without fear to take advantage of our time here. I don't come from a world where we treat others like objects, it is foreign to me. I think that teaching has given me incredible success even in the face of adversity. I don't like points of view that limit individuals.
For example:
I'm not good at math
A black man can never be president
I'm not that smart
A woman will never be taken seriously if she dresses a certain way.
I see them all as excuses.
Social norms should be challenged, and I commend you on your position but let's be critical here. If a point of view does not limit our women then aren't our women's abilities limited only by their imaginations?
You both have reading comprehension issues. I did not say he IS petty or is being petty. He assuming pettiness on the part of others (those who he thinks are jealous, don't like sexy etc) when that is not the issue. It runs much deeper than that. It's quite clear that you only skim posts so you have no room to charge ineffective communication.
I never said they are jealous. They do not like sexy in the media, or that is what they champion. I started this thread because it takes higher order thinking to sort this out.
My mother was a real feminist back in the 50s through to the 80s. She was driven and was very successful. There is a difference between real feminists and those that we have today. My mother NEVER blamed males for anything. You can not keep a good man down - nor can you keep a good WOMAN down.
I can't blanket the entire feminist world with this issue, just those that feel this way. Love the last sentence.
You both have reading comprehension issues. I did not say he IS petty or is being petty. He assuming pettiness on the part of others (those who he thinks are jealous, don't like sexy etc) when that is not the issue. It runs much deeper than that. It's quite clear that you only skim posts so you have no room to charge ineffective communication.
It's ok to not understand someone's intentions or be 100% clear on their meaning. There is time to sort and clarify things, I guess everyone goes through this..... some define this as a "storming" phase in communication.
Some members of my family, and people I know in the southwest. There are blogs like "about-face".
I meet many young women and they are traumatized with anxiety and stress due to unrealistic expectations of other peoples behavior. It's like they stress over what other women wear, they also stress about what they wear because they fear they might "contribute" , etc. I have even met women that are not comfortable with their feminine features...
Unintended consequences.
There is no way to control other people, and our personal choices should give us enough satisfaction to live in peace. I would want all the women in my life to be proud they are women without having some other woman judge them for what they wear or because they like Victoria secret. I also don't want them to live in fear. I want peace for them.
The photoshopping thing is just plain dumb, I don't like it, and it sure adds fuel to this perception of evil objectifying men everywhere looking for a heartless doll.
All the men I hang out with are not even close to these trolls and objectifiers, I see a bunch of guys with great relationships that love their partners and are happy they are comfortably sexy!
"Feminism gone wrong" is a title to talk about the issues, and the best explanation I have from this thread is that feminists do not want the media to contribute to men's objectification of women. I say that all that does not matter, it didn't matter to the queen of England in England's empire days.... She was a woman in charge of a country that basically took over the whole world for a good while. She did it at a time where women could not even vote. You can't control other peoples behavior personally, you can't stress over things that are not in your direct control, but you can voice your opinion, debate it and with reason win people over.
So it isn't a fem. Crusade but you seeking out blogs and normal female insecurities
I can understand your fear, it's real. The world is not perfect but we all have to live without fear to take advantage of our time here. I don't come from a world where we treat others like objects, it is foreign to me. I think that teaching has given me incredible success even in the face of adversity. I don't like points of view that limit individuals.
Victoria Secret modeling is all about objectifying the female body. It's the idealization of the unreal. IIRC you indeed support it. I'm not sure what you're talking about here about not coming from that world when you appear to be immersed in it.
Quote:
For example:
I'm not good at math
A black man can never be president
I'm not that smart
A woman will never be taken seriously if she dresses a certain way.
I see them all as excuses.
What does that mean? You them as excuses for what? Anyhow, that is exactly what has been taught to young girls in the US and has been a challenge for parents to overcome. Environment and gender stereotyping play huge roles.
Further, our society analyzes how women dress as a measure of their credibility. That is a fact. You and I may not like it, but that makes no difference.
Quote:
Social norms should be challenged, and I commend you on your position but let's be critical here. If a point of view does not limit our women then aren't our women's abilities limited only by their imaginations?
I don't understand what you're saying here. I don't understand how you are using the word critical. Point of views (stereotyping, social messages, etc) most certainly limit success in life and shape how we see our selves. Whether it's about women, minorities, whatever. It's all the same. Again, I'm not sure if I'm following your point.
"Feminism gone wrong" is a title to talk about the issues, and the best explanation I have from this thread is that feminists do not want the media to contribute to men's objectification of women. I say that all that does not matter, it didn't matter to the queen of England in England's empire days.... She was a woman in charge of a country that basically took over the whole world for a good while. She did it at a time where women could not even vote. You can't control other peoples behavior personally, you can't stress over things that are not in your direct control, but you can voice your opinion, debate it and with reason win people over.
You have not made a case for feminism going wrong in any way, which I guess is a positive thing. If anything this thread shows me how it's going right and how important feminism still is. It has been a good refresher course for me, so I'm glad you started it. Second, using an outlier (queen) as example is pointless. If you have a population in mind, instead, from that era then that would have more impact for your point. Finally, of course all that does matter. Since it does not personally affect you, you probably do not realize it's importance. Women are prized for the T&A to such a degree that most everything else about an individual woman takes second fiddle. That's what we live day in and day out. I don't blame anyone for that to be clear (again). I think it's our physiology. It's how we're made.
So it isn't a fem. Crusade but you seeking out blogs and normal female insecurities
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. I'm looking for problems maybe? I'm delusional maybe? Well read the thread and you will see that some women feel this way.
Victoria Secret modeling is all about objectifying the female body. It's the idealization of the unreal. IIRC you indeed support it. I'm not sure what you're talking about here about not coming from that world when you appear to be immersed in it.
What does that mean? You them as excuses for what? Anyhow, that is exactly what has been taught to young girls in the US and has been a challenge for parents to overcome. Environment and gender stereotyping play huge roles.
Further, our society analyzes how women dress as a measure of their credibility. That is a fact. You and I may not like it, but that makes no difference.
I don't understand what you're saying here. I don't understand how you are using the word critical. Point of views (stereotyping, social messages, etc) most certainly limit success in life and shape how we see our selves. Whether it's about women, minorities, whatever. It's all the same. Again, I'm not sure if I'm following your point.
What exactly would you propose on a practical level other than just complaining about it? Maybe you need to organize a picket at Victoria's Secret HQ or get in the face of some of the models then. This is a free society and they were not forced to pose.
BTW, there were no feminist complaints when Burt Reynolds posed nude for Playgirl back in the 70's (or was it early 80's). Of course more feminists back then were focused on the REAL issues (equal pay, etc). No complaints about objectification that I can remember. I have also heard stories about some female bachelorette parties that would have to be censored and would certainly be rated X or at least R.
Women also objectify men, but are more coy and less open about it. I have accidentally eavesdropped on conversations between women where I heard "What a hunk that guy is! (referring to me of course...just kidding!).
The solution is for people that are not happy with their body image to just not worry about Victoria's Secret ads and heck, maybe exercise a little and push away second helpings. I am a little overweight myself, but not ridiculously so. 100% my fault. 0% society's fault. I have made some changes in 2014 (no cream in coffee, more exercise, less late night snacking). Blaming society or other factor does no good at all.
Take some responsibility and quit blaming the society for all the body image issues people have. I am not one of those males that likes the unrealistic real skinny look for woman either. At the same time parents need to teach their young men to be courteous and not call someone fat. However, teenage and twentysomething girls/women seem to have taken to doing that to heavy guys recently, so also scold them!
It is a two way street.
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