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First of all, for those homicides listed, how many of them are due to guns?
B, wasn't Greece the country that Amnesty International wrote a nice book about how it tortured its citizens in the 70's? Weren't Germany and Italy the countries that weren't that kind to some of their citizens during the 40's?
Now we can say that was a while back and they've changed now......but when compared to 220 years, it really wasn't that long ago.
Another point about those polite, "civilized" Europeans is that they can be very nasty when galvanized and polarized by demagoguery -- tens of millions of lives lost between 1914 and 1945, some of them by the most organized and vicious examples of man's inhumanity to man.
Perhaps our OP would be better off (by his/her standards) back in Europe; but he/she had better pray that they are never on the losing side of a power struggle.
You like the European model, stay in Europe. If you don't like the American Model, don't move to the US
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
Another point about those polite, "civilized" Europeans is that they can be very nasty when galvanized and polarized by demagoguery -- tens of millions of lives lost between 1914 and 1945, some of them by the most organized and vicious examples of man's inhumanity to man.
Perhaps our OP would be better off (by his/her standards) back in Europe; but he/she had better pray that they are never on the losing side of a power struggle.
I already addressed that. I'm not defending Europe, nor is the place I want to live.
I vastly prefer the USA.
We're talking about the gun problem USA still has in 2015 compared to other first world countries.
A fact you cannot dismiss, and that makes the average US citizien life less safer than it should be.
Moderator cut: Language Read my words: I dislike Europe, I just want USA to be the safe first world country it deserves to be when compared to the rest of the civilized world.
And its safety, as previously addressed, is strictly related to its gun problem.
If you don't have anything more constructive to say than that, then say nothing.
Do you love your country? I guess so. Then don't dismiss the problem, fight it.
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Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
That simply is not going to happen; the high-crime neighborhoods are saturated with guns, and the gangster element has a near-inexhaustible supply of them.
My advice to our OP would be to do some exploring outside of New England, and outside of the supposedly-"progressive" cosmopolitian cities.
The majority of people who live in smaller, closer-knit communities are law-abiding, outgoing and friendly -- and a lot more diverse than the picture painted by our detractors.
Thank you for your constructive reply.
I'm aware that there are a lot of smaller communities which are mostly free of those problems and that the average american is a law-abiding citizien, while your average thug - racist or not - is most of the times an illegal black or hispanic.
But this doesn't negate the problem itself, which still exists in big cities (which is, by defition, where most people go to live).
The US citizien has simply accepted that a big city (except maybe for NY) will have its fair share of violent gun-related crime and gun-related problems. This shouldn't be the case. No one would simply "accept" that in every other first world country.
The high-crime neighborhoods are saturated with guns because the US is saturated with guns.
If the US imposed a strict gun-banning policy similar to Australia, you can bet that the criminals would run out of either guns or ammos in a very short time and would have nowhere to steal them or even legally buying them (what a shame) in the US.
And with the border mostly secured, it would be hard to get them from Mexico on such a gigantic scale for the entire US territory.
Really, the average high-crime neighborhood doesn't get all his weapons and ammunition refills all the way from Mexico, they're right there in USA. The ugly truth is that the "thug" has a way easier access to weapons and ammos in USA than it does in anywhere in the other first world countries - a problem that is so easily solvable by banning guns themselves, giving no opportunity to steal them from citiziens or even legally acquire them anywhere in the US territory.
But not impossible. Australia banned almost all guns, and simply bought them back from the gun owners. It's worked.
But Australia is AN ISLAND CONTINENT 2500 miles away from the nearest civilization. They are not bordered on the South by Mexico. It is comparing apples to oranges.
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Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Simple answer, instead of trying to overthrow the Constitution and Culture of the United States, stay in Europe that already conforms to what you want.
A docile population of sheep that live under the heel of whoever is in power.
Some areas still have the Costa Nostra, I remember the Baader Minehoff gang and several others, this kind of stuff is still going strong in Europe, but the population only gets to submit or die until the government does something like putting together a paramilitary unit like the Caribinari that shoot first and ask questions later.
You like the European model, stay in Europe. If you don't like the American Model, don't move to the US.
Problem solved.
I would rep you but cannot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeltaOrionis
We're talking about the gun problem USA still has in 2015 compared to other first world countries.
A fact you cannot dismiss, and that makes the average US citizien life less safer than it should be.
Outside of the ghettos of the major metropolitan areas of this country we are very much in line with Europe in every crime statistic.
Worried about your safety? Don't move to the projects of a big city when you come.
Problem solved.
Last edited by chadgates; 11-02-2015 at 01:26 PM..
I'm aware that there are a lot of smaller communities which are mostly free of those problems.
But this doesn't negate the problem itself, which still exists in big cities (which is, by defition, where most people go to live).
The US citizien has simply accepted that a big city (except maybe for NY) will have its fair share of violent gun-related crime and gun-related problems. This shouldn't be the case. No one would simply "accept" that in every other first world country.
The high-crime neighborhoods are saturated with guns because the US is saturated with guns.
If the US imposed a strict gun-banning policy similar to Australia, you can bet that the criminals would run out of either guns or ammos in a very short time and would have nowhere to steal them or even legally buying them (what a shame) in the US.
And with the border mostly secured, it would be hard to get them from Mexico on such a gigantic scale for the entire US territory.
Really, the average high-crime neighborhood doesn't get all his weapons and ammunition refills all the way from Mexico, they're right there in USA.
Problem with your whole premise is that the large majority of gun owners are not criminals.
Yet your "solution" is to restrict the rights of all of us, to try and stop the small % of criminals.
Name one other tool you would suggest that lunatic logic on.
I already addressed that. I'm not defending Europe, nor is the place I want to live. I vastly prefer the USA. We're talking about the gun problem USA still has in 2015 compared to other first world countries. A fact you cannot dismiss, and that makes the average US citizien life less safer than it should be. ... And its safety, as previously addressed, is strictly related to its gun problem.
The USA doesn't have a "gun problem", the USA has a violent criminal problem. And it's not actually the entire United States; it's no more reasonable to talk about the USA as a homogeneous whole than to talk about the EU as one uniform entity. Much of of violent crime in America is concentrated in relatively small geographic areas, while there are entire US states which are overall safer than many parts of Europe (and Canada), particularly in terms of violent crime rates, but also in total homicide rate.
If you look at the safest European nations, their total murder rate (any weapon) is lower than the non-firearms murder rate in the most dangerous American states. So even without any firearms (and without any substitution effect), the most dangerous regions of the USA would still be more dangerous than the best parts of the EU.
Conversely, if you look at states in the USA with the lowest murder rates (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, etc), these states have among the least restrictive gun laws in the nation, high rates of firearms ownership and concealed carry, and very low violent crime rates -- less violent crime than in many parts of Europe.
Problem with your whole premise is that the large majority of gun owners are not criminals.
Yet your "solution" is to restrict the rights of all of us, to try and stop the small % of criminals.
Name one other tool you would suggest that lunatic logic on.
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Originally Posted by Nonesuch
Conversely, if you look at states in the USA with the lowest murder rates (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, etc), these states have among the least restrictive gun laws in the nation, high rates of firearms ownership and concealed carry, and very low violent crime rates -- less violent crime than in many parts of Europe.
I already addressed this wrong mentality at least 3 times in this thread.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the gun-problem (widespread presence of weapons all over the US territory) and the easy access to them from criminals by either stealing them from law-abiding citiziens or even acquiring them legally is exactly the cause of the violent crime problem. It doesn't matter that the thug can't easily find citiziens to rob a gun from in Chicago because of its strict gun regulations, when it can easily acquire / steal / traffic them from all the rest of the US. Duh. That's why gun control "doesn't work", if it's partial it really doesn't matter. It's basic logic.
And citing states which are mostly rural and with less racial diversity as a counter-argument, when gangs and thugs obviously reside mostly in big cities where there's more opportunity for crime and are mostly illegal immigrants of some sort, is again a fallacious reasoning.
This is what I previously wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeltaOrionis
This is exactly the kind of mentality that prevents the USA from being a safe place to live, compared to the other first world countries. This is the kind of "waking up" I'm talking about.
Most criminals, gang members and "thugs" use stolen weapons and ammunitions.
Do you think they steal them from the PDs? Hell no, they steal them from citiziens, they're so easy to find in the average big city househould anyway! They may even be able to buy / traffic them themselves given how lax gun regulations are in some US states, or at very least smash-and-grab the same weapon shop you buy your guns and ammos from, thinking how safer you are for being able to easily and conveniently buy them to protect your family.
Re-read what I wrote:
When there are no more guns to steal, because no one owns one or sell one, and no bullets to fire because no one owns or sells one and when the borders are safely guarded (not letting guns and bullets come from Mexico) - you can guarantee the shootings will end. Owning a gun, being able to buy bullets, doesn't make you safer - instead it's the complete opposite: you are giving criminals the chance to easily find / steal / own guns everywhere in the country and use them against you.
Let this sink in, in another format if you prefer - having access to guns doesn't make you safer, is exactly what gives the "thug" the chance to kill your family if he wants to, with the gun he stole the other day from your neighbor.
Lastly, always consider other first world countries. There's a very strong correlation between gun ownership and murder rate, always remember that. And I've thoroughly explained why in my previous posts - not that it needs to be explained, it's rather obvious.
I don't understand why I have to repeat myself so many times when my very first post already addressed every predictable counter-argument you gun-defenders have come up with.
Last edited by TheDeltaOrionis; 11-02-2015 at 01:53 PM..
I already addressed this wrong mentality at least 3 times in this thread.
This is what I previously wrote.
I don't understand why I have to repeat myself so many times when my very first post already addressed every predictable counter-argument you gun-defenders have come up with.
Moderator cut: Charged Language Just because you deem it "wrong" doesn't make it so.
As pointed out just above, the gun related homicide rate has been falling over the last 25 years. It is just an agenda driven media that makes it seem like that isn't the case.
The numbers are the real story, not the emotional drama highlighted by the MSM.
I currently live in Europe, I dream about permanently moving to USA.
There's only one thing that truly disgusts me about the US, and it's actually a big scary thing: guns and how they're so widespread in the population for both the law-abiding citizien and the criminal.
Really, it's such a shame for a great and first world country like the USA to have such ugly violent and murder rate statistics compared to all other first world countries in the EU and Asia.
In most of Europe you can live in the worst areas of the city on the cheap, and generally still be really safe, you just wouldn't be in a desiderable and hip area with many amenities. You don't ever even think about guns in the EU or the possibility to be ever shot at. I'm not saying there's no crime - just that being held at gun point is not something that ever crosses the mind of an EU citizien, not even walking in the worst parts of the city.
Practically no one owns a gun, there are no weapon shops, it's really hard to obtain or even steal one since you would have to take them from the armed forces themselves. Looking at all the first world countries it seems obvious that if there are practically no guns in the entire country and if it's really hard to obtain one, the place is automatically safer from violent crime.
The common, Moderator cut: Charged Language argument, is that the cities with the most gun control in USA (like Chicago) are actually the most dangerous and these rules apply only to the law-abiding citiziens.Well, duh. What's the point of gun control in isolated areas if in all the rest of the country is so easy to obtain / steal / traffic weapons, simply because they're everywhere, and in general owning a gun is considered a normal thing?
I'm not even talking about gun control, I'm talking about gun banning: what's the point of a citizien in a first world country in even owning a gun? What prevents the USA from completely banning gun ownership except for the armed forces (police, army etc.) in all the USA, secure the borders with Mexico in order to not let guns in, close all the weapon shops, stop selling bullets and magazines in all the country (you don't even to take guns away from the criminals, no bullets anywhere = no shootings)?
When there are no more guns to steal, because no one owns one or sell one, and no bullets to fire because no one owns or sells one and when the borders are safely guarded (not letting guns and bullets come from Mexico) - you can guarantee the shootings will end. Owning a gun, being able to buy bullets, doesn't make you safer - instead it's the complete opposite: you are giving criminals the chance to easily find / steal / own guns everywhere in the country and use them against you.
Really, why doesn't USA move into the right direction and starts looking at other first world countries? Moderator cut: Charged Language
Don't forget, the American Bill if Rights was written to protect us from Europeans. The USA revised its gun control laws about the time you formed the EU. Our rate of gun violence has been steadily declining for over 20 years. Granted, it's unlikely right now that Europeans will go back to the mass slaughter of millions of unarmed innocents, but there are still people alive in America who remember you doing precisely that.
As legal gun ownership in the USA has increased, rape has decreased:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeltaOrionis
I don't understand why I have to repeat myself so many times when my very first post already addressed every predictable counter-argument you gun-defenders have come up with.
So you've already made up your mind, aren't even reading any responses?
Here's an counter-argument: political regions (nations, states, cities) where the law-abiding are deprived arms have a higher overall violent crime rate (not just murder, but rape, assault, battery, etc) than areas where the victims are legally able to obtain and carry an effective means of self-defense.
So you aren't just advocating a "solution" that might somewhat reduce the murder rate, but one that will increase the incidence of violent crime and rape. Why do you want to make it easier for rapists to rape?
Moderator cut: Charged Language Just because you deem it "wrong" doesn't make it so.
As pointed out just above, the gun related homicide rate has been falling over the last 25 years. It is just an agenda driven media that makes it seem like that isn't the case.
The numbers are the real story, not the emotional drama highlighted by the MSM.
I notice you didn't answer MY question either.
I edited my previous post repeating, again, things I've already wrote that should address your question.
I know that numbers have been falling, that's a good thing. Still gun violence, armed gangs and thugs are very present.
It's not an opinion nor a personal stance that gun related crime is often committed with stolen weapons and ammos from citiziens. When they're not stolen, it means they're legally acquired, which is even worse and not something to be proud of. It's a fact.
Give up your guns and criminals will not be able to take advantage of them. It's that simple.
Last edited by Jeo123; 11-02-2015 at 04:34 PM..
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Disarm the law-abiding victims, and violent crime will increase
Why do you want OSHA for rapists?
