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The OP doesn't like guns. I have relatives in Europe who would agree with the OP and outright ban all guns except for the military. In their minds Cops don't even need guns.
The entire argument that the OP has is suggestions to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
Here is a novel idea lets ban all criminals instead.
*SNIP*
Granted, it's unlikely right now that Europeans will go back to the mass slaughter of millions of unarmed innocents, but there are still people alive in America who remember you doing precisely that.
I currently live in Europe, I dream about permanently moving to USA.
There's only one thing that truly disgusts me about the US, and it's actually a big scary thing: guns and how they're so widespread in the population for both the law-abiding citizien and the criminal.
......blah blah blah.....
Really, why doesn't USA move into the right direction and starts looking at other first world countries? Moderator cut: Charged Language
If its that scary for you, please just stay in Europe.
Moderator cut: Off Topic
Number of guns does not correlate to gun homicide rate.
In the US over the last 20 year the gun murder rate has been cut in half, during that same period gun ownership has soared.
If you plot gun ownership rate vs murder rate for countries or US states you will quickly find that there is no relation.
Your own charts disprove what your trying to prove. Switzerland, Norway, Sweden and Austria according to your chart are among lowest homicide rates, yet they have significantly higher gun ownership than most other countries in the list.
I think there are something like 30,000 car related deaths each year in the US. Seems like if your worried about guns so much that you would be even more worried about cars.
There are more people killed by DUIs than guns, why not ban alcohol and drugs. (oops drugs are banned, lot of good that does).
The biggest problem you have is that guns are a fundamental human right. You cannot say that someone has the right to life and liberty without also admitting that they have the right to defend those rights. To do so would be a logical fallacy Moderator cut: Off Topic.
Besides, I am reading that several EU countries are experiencing very brisk gun sales, due to their governments idiotic immigration policy. I hear that people have bought every gun available in Austria. Sounds like people over there are gonna be wishing that they had a second amendment before long.
Last edited by Jeo123; 11-02-2015 at 06:07 PM..
Reason: Edited quote
This is exactly the kind of mentality that prevents the USA from being a safe place to live, compared to the other first world countries. This is the kind of "waking up" I'm talking about.
Most criminals, gang members and "thugs" use stolen weapons and ammunitions.
Do you think they steal them from the PDs? Hell no, they steal them from citiziens, they're so easy to find in the average big city househould anyway! They may even be able to buy / traffic them themselves given how lax gun regulations are in some US states, or at very least smash-and-grab the same weapon shop you buy your guns and ammos from, thinking how safer you are for being able to easily and conveniently buy them to protect your family.
Re-read what I wrote:
Let this sink in, in another format if you prefer - having access to guns doesn't make you safer, is exactly what gives the "thug" the chance to kill your family if he wants to, with the gun he stole the other day from your neighbor.
Lastly, always consider other first world countries. There's a very strong correlation between gun ownership and murder rate, always remember that. And I've thoroughly explained why in my previous posts - not that it needs to be explained, it's rather obvious.
I wonder why Europeans are rushing to buy firearms. Could it be all of the friendly peace loving refugees streaming int the EU?
Like I said earlier, if you are so afraid of the 2nd Amendment, you cac chose to stay in gun free Europe
The o.p. makes excellent points. What the o.p. has NOT said, IMO is key to understanding just how absolutely important it is for us to listen carefully to his/her POV. In both Europe and America, the majority of gun homicides will be committed by thug types obtaining handguns illegally. An individual with no ties to crime CANNOT be a victim of gun crime in Europe. It just isn't possible. No one is going to waste the incredible effort it takes to obtain a gun to use it simply to terrorize innocent civilians. Not so in America. In America, the sheer proliferation of handguns means that in addition to the 10's of thousands of thug on thug killings you also have several thousand murders/2nd degree manslaughter's of lower, middle and even a few upper class American's with no previous connection to criminal activity. What a waste! No thinking person should condone it. There has been one high body count mass shooting in Europe this decade. How many high body count mass shootings have there been in America this year?! No thinking person should condone this.
My reasoning involved securing the borders, which are already really secure anyway - most of border towns / cities like El Paso, TX are routinely named really safe.
Trust me, the average "thug" doesn't get his weapons from Mexico, there are plenty in USA.
Moderator cut: Charged Language
That's a graph comparing first world countries, you'll find many similar ones on the net, enjoy.
You're dismissing a very evident and easily solvable problem with fallacious and pointless reasoning.
If you love your country so much, why don't you take steps to improve it by changing how you think about guns?
There are 315,000,000 of us...in a somewhat free society......you are comparing that to Finland??? We have cities with more than Finland in total....
Guns are an American Heritage. The majority of people that own firearms use them to hunt and target shoot while others collect them for their historic and monetary value. A small minority own and train with firearms to actually kill people if it comes down to it. Only criminals use guns to intentionally hurt people though accidents do happen to careless people.
A gun is a great equalizer. Imagine a woman home in bed and she is awakened by her front door being kicked in and heavy footsteps coming up the stairs. You can fill in the blank here... the intruder is a drug addict looking for money, her ex looking to kill, a rapist or any other number of maniacs out to do harm who picked her because she is a woman.
The only thing between her and being assaulted is the bedroom door. I would want her to have a firearm and be able to defend herself.
It is not only the bad guys that have guns. What chance does a 110 pound woman have against a 200 pound man? How about the elderly. Why should they be victims? Why should anyone be a victim of a crime?
America is the home of the Brave and the Free and people like to be independent. I don't know too many people who rely on the Gov. for their well being except in Europe.
I do agree that something needs to be done to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally challenged and the just plain stupid. All the above can steal or hop into a unattended car and cause lots of problems. Cars Guns they all need to be regulated and usage laws need to be enforced.
No one is going to stand up and say "I'm a bad guy take away my gun" It is an uphill battle with many pitfalls involving stepping all over the second amendment.
There are 315,000,000 of us...in a somewhat free society......you are comparing that to Finland??? We have cities with more than Finland in total....
You do know that the comparisons are made more fair by citing per capita aggregates right? Its a valid enough way of making a comparison. There is no rationalizing away the completely off the chain gun violence statistics of the U.S.
Legal firearms in the USA produces more economic benefit than the GDP of some EU nations
The USA is not Europe, we have a lot of traditions and rights that are different from how things are done in Europe. This includes our tradition of a strong right to bear arms, codified in the constitution and not easily removed.
Not everybody bears arms for protection against criminals. My woods have bear and packs of coyotes, my chicken coop is at risk of fox and fisher, and skeet and target shooting is a popular sport here. But the desire to make use of "sporting" arms doesn't negate the more encompassing natural right.
Quote:
When there are no more guns to steal, because no one owns one or sell one, and no bullets to fire because no one owns or sells one and when (not letting guns and bullets come from Mexico)
You really think the USA can close down the borders and stop smuggling? Criminals manage to bring in metric tons of cocaine and heroin, but will stop at adding a few handguns to the shipment?
In both Europe and America, the majority of gun homicides will be committed by thug types obtaining handguns illegally. An individual with no ties to crime CANNOT be a victim of gun crime in Europe. It just isn't possible. No one is going to waste the incredible effort it takes to obtain a gun to use it simply to terrorize innocent civilians. Not so in America. In America, the sheer proliferation of handguns means that in addition to the 10's of thousands of thug on thug killings you also have several thousand murders/2nd degree manslaughter's of lower, middle and even a few upper class American's with no previous connection to criminal activity.
Really? CANNOT be a victim? I think "cannot" is a real stretch. But in the USA it is also highly unlikely for innocent civilians to be shot with a handgun, as somewhere between 85-91% of victims have documented ties to crime.
Also your numbers are way out of date. In 2013 there were fewer than 10,000 total firearms homicides/murders/manslaughters, of which it is likely fewer than a thousand were anything but "thug on thug killings".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeltaOrionis
And citing states which are mostly rural and with less racial diversity as a counter-argument, when gangs and thugs obviously reside mostly in big cities where there's more opportunity for crime and are mostly illegal immigrants of some sort, is again a fallacious reasoning..
So you're saying America has an urban problem, a racial diversity problem, and an illegal immigrant problem? That the problem is the big cities where gangs and thugs reside, and America shouldn't penalize people who live in "safe" states (which happen to be rural and less diverse) because of the actions of a criminal underclass in "unsafe" cities in other states?
So you agree, the problem includes the motive and opportunity for crime, taking away the means won't eliminate the problem. Eliminate all the firearms homicides in Chicago or LA or New Orleans, and you are left with non-firearms murder rates higher than the total murder rate in many parts of Europe --the problem in America is not the tool, the root cause of violent crime is violent criminals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd
The OP doesn't like guns. I have relatives in Europe who would agree with the OP and outright ban all guns except for the military. In their minds Cops don't even need guns. The entire argument that the OP has is suggestions to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Here is a novel idea lets ban all criminals instead.
Not even all criminals, just a subset of violent criminals and the drug money that motivates them.
In US cities, nearly all criminal shootings are related to the drug trade (see the "80% of homicides are gang/drug-related" link at the top). If "the borders are safely guarded" and the illegal drug trade is constrained, we could eliminate the majority of homicides, without needing to change firearms laws or disarm the innocent people in states like Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire (states where we already have a lower homicide rate than Canada and parts of the EU).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeltaOrionis
I know that numbers have been falling, that's a good thing. Still gun violence, armed gangs and thugs are very present. It's not an opinion nor a personal stance that gun related crime is often committed with stolen weapons and ammos from citiziens. When they're not stolen, it means they're legally acquired, which is even worse and not something to be proud of. It's a fact. Give up your guns and criminals will not be able to take advantage of them. It's that simple.
Disarm the victims, and criminals will take even more advantage of the victims than they do today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
You do know that the comparisons are made more fair by citing per capita aggregates right? Its a valid enough way of making a comparison. There is no rationalizing away the completely off the chain gun violence statistics of the U.S.
You mean the statistics which are generally trending downwards? And of course ignoring the fact that several US states have lower overall violence and murder rates than several EU nations. How do you rationalize away the completely off the chain violent crime rates in many parts of Europe? Or is violence okay when the attacker (without a gun, but with brute strength or a knife) perpetrates it against a weaker, disarmed, victim?
Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008
Additionally, eliminating legal firearms entirely would have a huge, negative impact on the US economy, as legal firearms in the USA produces more economic activity than the GDP of some EU nations.
Firearms, ammo and related hunting equipment alone account for about 250K jobs and generating $43 Billion towards GDP and paying $5,800,000,000 in tax revenue to the US Government. Firearms hunters (primarily deer and waterfowl hunters) in just the state of Michigan alone contribute $1- $2 billion dollars towards the state economy. That's one single US state, just hunters.
Last edited by Nonesuch; 11-02-2015 at 07:19 PM..
Reason: Add link to source to give citation for dropping firearms violence rates
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Legal firearms in the USA produces more economic benefit than the GDP of some EU nations
