Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (biased, economic, Seattle)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Exactly. Which is why it's so ridiculous for people to say out of one side of their mouth how angry they are for being exposed to vpd in waiting rooms at pediatrician/doctor offices yet they say out the other that they have no problem going and sitting in a waiting room/doctor office with contagious illness.
Then you say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
We don't need multiple waiting rooms. Just one would suffice. People can check in via telephone and wait in their cars. Those without cars can wait the waiting room. This isn't that complex of a problem with no available solutions. It's certainly less complex then the issue of trying to force everyone to get vaccinated, or else.
Your implication is that people with flu are stupid and will just go sit in the waiting room without calling in advance to coordinate with their doctors, while those who do not vaccinate will wait in their cars. People with flu can check in via telephone and wait in their cars, too. A place to wait can be found for those with no cars.
The fact is that parents who do not vaccinate will often not recognize that their child's rash is due to measles or chickenpox. Then they show up in the waiting room of the doctor's office or go to the ER. Unfortunately, health personnel who have never seen measles may not recognize it. Even Dr. "Bob" Sears and his staff missed it, resulting in spread of measles by one of his unvacccinated patients.
Of the four who were infected in the waiting room, one was an infant who had to be hospitalized.
Why should I be able to sue you if you cause an accident that hospitalizes my child but not sue you if you send him to the hospital with a preventable infectious disease? Apart from the fact that your decision made my child get sick, it cost me money for medical expenses and possibly lost time from work. It costs insurance companies money, and it costs the public health system money to control an outbreak - one that is preventable with vaccination. Rarely, your child will get well but another family's child dies.
Doctors who are willing to see unvaccinated children need to make sure parents know to call before bringing in a child who may have a VPD. That means the parents need to know the signs and symptoms of every disease for which their child is not vaccinated. Essentially any rash or fever should be suspect until a VPD is ruled out. Any parent who takes an unvaccinated child out of the western hemisphere should be aware of the risk of that child coming home with measles. Parents who take any unvaccinated child to an ER with a fever or rash should notify the staff immediately and if a child has an injury, his status with respect to tetanus vaccination should be made known.
If you refuse to vaccinate, you have to accept responsibility for the effects that decision may have on others.
My pediatrician had a well waiting room and a sick waiting room. Obviously, sick kids would be in the sick room and kids who are coming for physicals or checkups or anything else would go to the well waiting room. I liked this idea. If offices have enough room, I think it's something good to adopt. Both waiting rooms were completely separated from the other by a hallway and closing doors.
People are free to decline vaccines if they wish, but society is under no obligation to offer services to those who shirk their civic responsibility. You want rights with no responsibilities. Unfortunately, the ones who get penalized are children with obdurate parents. They are exiled from public education, and my encounter a pediatrician who refuses to accept them as patients because they are unvaccinated. In my area, the Boys and Girls Club, which has a large recreational facility, refuses to allow entry to unvaccinated children.
That's not on society, it is on parents who allow their blind superstition to penalize their children.
I don't agree that making sure everyone is vaccinated is a civic responsibility. I believe that individuals have the right to informed consent and the ability to accept or decline any medical intervention of their choosing. People own their bodies, not the government.
What area do you live in that won't allow unvaccinated children entry into the Boy's and Girls Club?
Suzy, I'm not contradicting myself by offering up solutions to the issue of illness being spread via waiting rooms. I happen to understand that doctor's office's are places where people might encounter others who are sick from a variety of illnesses.
Quote:
Your implication is that people with flu are stupid and will just go sit in the waiting room without calling in advance to coordinate with their doctors, while those who do not vaccinate will wait in their cars. People with flu can check in via telephone and wait in their cars, too. A place to wait can be found for those with no cars.
Your implication was that antivaxxers are too stupid not to bring their sick child into the waiting room and that vaccinated people know better. Don't put your thoughts onto me. That's projection.
Quote:
The fact is that parents who do not vaccinate will often not recognize that their child's rash is due to measles or chickenpox. Then they show up in the waiting room of the doctor's office or go to the ER. Unfortunately, health personnel who have never seen measles may not recognize it. Even Dr. "Bob" Sears and his staff missed it, resulting in spread of measles by one of his unvacccinated patients.
Generalizing antivaxxers again. Just proving my point.
Quote:
Why should I be able to sue you if you cause an accident that hospitalizes my child but not sue you if you send him to the hospital with a preventable infectious disease? Apart from the fact that your decision made my child get sick, it cost me money for medical expenses and possibly lost time from work. It costs insurance companies money, and it costs the public health system money to control an outbreak - one that is preventable with vaccination. Rarely, your child will get well but another family's child dies.
Illness, germs, bacteria, virus are all a part of life. You can take reasonable measures to protect yourself but those reasonable measures do not include forcing your way on everyone else. It's unrealistic and dangerous to our freedom to choose.
Quote:
Doctors who are willing to see unvaccinated children need to make sure parents know to call before bringing in a child who may have a VPD. That means the parents need to know the signs and symptoms of every disease for which their child is not vaccinated. Essentially any rash or fever should be suspect until a VPD is ruled out. Any parent who takes an unvaccinated child out of the western hemisphere should be aware of the risk of that child coming home with measles. Parents who take any unvaccinated child to an ER with a fever or rash should notify the staff immediately and if a child has an injury, his status with respect to tetanus vaccination should be made known.
ALL doctors should make sure parents know to call when they have ANY illness that may be contagious. ALL parents should be educated on the signs and symptoms of ALL common illness, including both VPD and non VPD. Not just parents who don't vaccinate.
Quote:
If you refuse to vaccinate, you have to accept responsibility for the effects that decision may have on others.
You need to learn to accept that the only person you have control over is yourself. You cannot control everyone. It's wrong.
My pediatrician had a well waiting room and a sick waiting room. Obviously, sick kids would be in the sick room and kids who are coming for physicals or checkups or anything else would go to the well waiting room. I liked this idea. If offices have enough room, I think it's something good to adopt. Both waiting rooms were completely separated from the other by a hallway and closing doors.
I like it as well. I've been in some who have and some who don't. I think it's a good precaution to take.
You need to learn to accept that the only person you have control over is yourself. You cannot control everyone. It's wrong.
You like displaying your control by potentially spreading deadly and previously nearly wiped out childhood communicable diseases? Ones that are deadly and can maim kids, can affect them for life? Isn't there a less harmful way you can assert your control as an adult who gets to make her own decisions? Seems like a pretty risky way to show defiance and adult-ness.
This is what anti-vaxxers are all about: control. "Well, no one can tell ME what to do with MY child blah blah!!" all defiant and all. It comes out more childish than anything else, in reality. Cute.
Suzy, I'm not contradicting myself by offering up solutions to the issue of illness being spread via waiting rooms. I happen to understand that doctor's office's are places where people might encounter others who are sick from a variety of illnesses.
Your implication was that antivaxxers are too stupid not to bring their sick child into the waiting room and that vaccinated people know better. Don't put your thoughts onto me. That's projection.
Generalizing antivaxxers again. Just proving my point.
Illness, germs, bacteria, virus are all a part of life. You can take reasonable measures to protect yourself but those reasonable measures do not include forcing your way on everyone else. It's unrealistic and dangerous to our freedom to choose.
ALL doctors should make sure parents know to call when they have ANY illness that may be contagious. ALL parents should be educated on the signs and symptoms of ALL common illness, including both VPD and non VPD. Not just parents who don't vaccinate.
You need to learn to accept that the only person you have control over is yourself. You cannot control everyone. It's wrong.
Bacteria, virus, and germs are all part of life. However, there are responsible ways to deal with them and irresponsible ways. Those who fail to deal with them in a responsible way should be held liable for damages. A restaurant has to meet requirements of the health code. If they fail to properly cook chicken they may not kill salmonella that is living on it. If they fail to kill the salmonella, patrons maybe come sick from food poisoning. No one in their right mind would take the position that restaurants have no duty to comply with the health code if they intend to serve food to the public because it poses an unreasonable risk of harm.
I see a direct analogy to this and a child who becomes sick because parents refused to vaccinate their children in accordance with the law and vaccine schedule. These regulations are imposed to protect public health as well as the health of unvaccinated child. You may not agree, but your problem is that an increasing number of people are agreeing. I expect to see such lawsuits within the next few years.
You like displaying your control by potentially spreading deadly and previously nearly wiped out childhood communicable diseases? Ones that are deadly and can maim kids, can affect them for life? Isn't there a less harmful way you can assert your control as an adult who gets to make her own decisions? Seems like a pretty risky way to show defiance and adult-ness.
This is what anti-vaxxers are all about: control. "Well, no one can tell ME what to do with MY child blah blah!!" all defiant and all. It comes out more childish than anything else, in reality. Cute.
I'm not wanting to spread illness. I am defending people's right to make informed healthcare decisions for their families without coercion and force from the government. I believe in freedom and I believe in choice. Especially when we are talking about a medical intervention that is injected into people's bodies that is not risk free. People have the right to choose.
Your accusations that this is a control issue or an act of defiance is bizarre, insulting and completely false. The people who want to force everyone to get vaccinate or else clearly are the ones who have issues with control. It's childish to assume that one will go through life without ever coming into contact with a specific list of illness. Your argument makes zero sense and I suspect that even you don't believe what you are saying to be true but rather are saying it to try and push buttons.
Bacteria, virus, and germs are all part of life. However, there are responsible ways to deal with them and irresponsible ways. Those who fail to deal with them in a responsible way should be held liable for damages. A restaurant has to meet requirements of the health code. If they fail to properly cook chicken they may not kill salmonella that is living on it. If they fail to kill the salmonella, patrons maybe come sick from food poisoning. No one in their right mind would take the position that restaurants have no duty to comply with the health code if they intend to serve food to the public because it poses an unreasonable risk of harm.
I see a direct analogy to this and a child who becomes sick because parents refused to vaccinate their children in accordance with the law and vaccine schedule. These regulations are imposed to protect public health as well as the health of unvaccinated child. You may not agree, but your problem is that an increasing number of people are agreeing. I expect to see such lawsuits within the next few years.
Your version of what is responsible is that people must get vaccinated for everything on the CDC' schedule. I think that with any medical intervention people can and do have the right to decide for themselves. Vaccines are not risk free and people may decide to take other precautions to maintain their health. Maybe they may even have a more eastern view on medicine then western. People are diverse and even if you think everyone should believe what you believe and do as you do, it's not right to force your way on everyone else.
I like it as well. I've been in some who have and some who don't. I think it's a good precaution to take.
I think so, too. I imagine it must be at least somewhat effective in ensuring those at the doctor who are not sick do not get sick from those who are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
I'm not wanting to spread illness. I am defending people's right to make informed healthcare decisions for their families without coercion and force from the government. I believe in freedom and I believe in choice. Especially when we are talking about a medical intervention that is injected into people's bodies that is not risk free. People have the right to choose.
Your accusations that this is a control issue or an act of defiance is bizarre, insulting and completely false. The people who want to force everyone to get vaccinate or else clearly are the ones who have issues with control. It's childish to assume that one will go through life without ever coming into contact with a specific list of illness. Your argument makes zero sense and I suspect that even you don't believe what you are saying to be true but rather are saying it to try and push buttons.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so snarky in that post. I definitely feel it is about control for some people. I just found it ironic that you were talking about control regarding one side, when the other can easily also claim people's refusal to vaccinate themselves or their kids is also a control thing. A type of defiant "you can't tell me what to do, you don't know what's best for me or my kid" thing. Because in reality, yes, those who create and research the vaccines actually DO know what's best. They do this for a living. They have spent years getting educated and researching this stuff. If they have found an unsafe component or measure taken, they have gone back and fixed it. It is not something they take lightly. They actively try to keep society healthier. The fact that some of the average folk in society (as in - those who are NOT scientists) try to downplay this and act like they know more than the professionals is what irks me, personally.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
