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It's not a perfect world and never will be, as much as some you want it to try to make it so.
We cannot make the world perfect, but we can make it more nearly so. We are not filling cemeteries with children dead from common childhood infections the way we did before vaccines.
ADAMS, little Tommie, son of Mr. and Mrs. J. E. Adams, died after a brief illness of membranous croup [diphtheria], last Thursday night, aged about one year and eleven months
BANNING, little Genie, youngest child of Maj. and Mrs. J. W. Banning, died in Greenville last Saturday of measles, aged one year, one month and 24 days (my great grandaunt)
COX, little Willie, son of Thomas and Rebecca Cox, died near Jones Mill Jan. 30th of membranous croup, age four years
ELLIS, little Mamie, only daughter of Mr. and Mrs. R. N. Ellis, in Greenville on Thursday morning the 16th of membranous croup, aged two years, 11 months and 18 days
FERRELL, John C., son of M. C. and S. S. Ferrell, died near the Chalybeate Springs, on the 31st of August of membranous croup, at the age of five
FLORENCE, Wood, little son of J. W. Florence, died last Monday of Menengitis
KENNEDY, Miss Gabriella, granddaughter of Allen McSwain near Sandtown, died last Tuesday of typhoid fever in the 18th year of her age
MANN, Miss Hattie, died of measles in Red Bone district last Wednesday
MOORE, little Lizzie, daughter of Geo. W. and Mattie A. Moore, died near Jones' Mills, on the 15th, of diphtheria, aged 5 years
REVILL, little Annie Byrd, daughter of Wm. T. and Alice Revill, died in Greenville of whooping cough on Wednesday the 29th, aged one year, seven months and (unreadable) days
Other children on the obituary list probably had similar illnesses though the cause of death is not given. Note the adults with typhoid and "consumption" - TB. There are vaccines for both of those, though the US does not routinely give them.
I have in my family tree an ancestor who died of typhoid, along with a son and four granddaughters. Another of his sons lost his first wife and a child. This was all in one outbreak.
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Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
I don't know where you read your article; you should always check information like that against a reliable source such as the CDC, Mayo Clinic, etc. The last I checked, the CDC did not recommend titers and said for adults not working in health care, proof of one dose of measles vaccine is sufficient to consider oneself protected.
I've never heard of the case you're talking about with this "Measles Mary". Somehow, I suspect, that, like the old game of telephone, details got changed as the story was re-told. Here's the case: A Fully Vaccinated Woman Contracted And Then Spread the Measles | Smart News | Smithsonian "Ultimately, she transmitted the measles to four other people, according to a recent report in Clinical Infectious Diseases that tracked symptoms in the 88 people with whom “Measles Mary” interacted while she was sick." Four people, no trip to Europe. This was the first case of a fully vaccinated person ever transmitting measles.
Instead of focusing on these statistical outliers, focus on doing what you can to protect yourself.
Not only the first case, but so far the only case. That's why it generated a report.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
People used to get these childhood illnesses in childhood, many of which conferred lifetime immunity. Vaccines on the other hand do not offer the same lifetime immunity nor do they allow for mothers to pass on the same level of antibodies to protect their babies during their earliest most vulnerable months.
Breastfeeding babies can and do still get sick even with the antibodies if exposed but they then have the benefit of a milder illness. People should have the right to chose to vaccinate, breastfeed or both.
Breastfeeding is not well supported in our culture even with the numerous health benefits including benefits to society as a whole in terms of saving healthcare dollars down the road. In fact many mothers who breastfeed are judged harshly and called Nazi's if they even dare say anything positive about breastfeeding.
I never said anything about exposing adult women to vpd but the vaccine does make it more likely that when and if people get vpd they will now get them as adults rather then as children due to the lack of guarantee of long term or lifetime immunity of vaccines vs natural immunity. Childhood measles, childhood chicken pox is much less risky then adult measles and adult chicken pox.
Another excellent article regarding the benefits of breastfeeding to overall health in so many ways. And yes the benefits persist long after the colostrum is gone. LLLI | The Science of Mother's Milk
In order to pass on antibodies due to having had the disease as a child, you have to get sick, sometimes very, very, sick. If you die, you do not ever get to have a baby at all.
As has been pointed out to you several times, the antibody protection wanes quickly whether it came from having been infected with the wild organism or from vaccination. It's not permanent.
Childhood measles and chickenpox are not without risk altogether. There are complications from those diseases that can result in hospitalization and sometimes lifelong disability. As someone else asked you up thread, how much sickness is acceptable to produce that small extra two months of antibody protection from breast milk?
Your last quote has nothing to do with antibodies. Lactoferrin is not an antibody, and immune benefits from it are not dependent on previous exposure to an infection.
Also, as previously explained to you, the solution for adults is to catch up on any missed vaccines and keep up with boosters.
We cannot make the world perfect, but we can make it more nearly so. We are not filling cemeteries with children dead from common childhood infections the way we did before vaccines.
A lot has changed since 1879. I can't believe you are really using deaths from that era to try and make your claim. So much has changed since that time. See Kat's link for the many examples of things that have changed that have led to longer, healthier lives and our ability to survive illness.
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In order to pass on antibodies due to having had the disease as a child, you have to get sick, sometimes very, very, sick. If you die, you do not ever get to have a baby at all.
You do have to get sick. Most people can and will survive these illnesses such as rotavirus, measles, chicken pox, rubella, etc. without any complications.
Quote:
As has been pointed out to you several times, the antibody protection wanes quickly whether it came from having been infected with the wild organism or from vaccination. It's not permanent.
The benefits of breastfeeding go on and on. If a baby gets an illness such as flu while breastfeeding, mom's body will adjust and produce antibodies. It is amazing.
Quote:
Childhood measles and chickenpox are not without risk altogether. There are complications from those diseases that can result in hospitalization and sometimes lifelong disability. As someone else asked you up thread, how much sickness is acceptable to produce that small extra two months of antibody protection from breast milk?
Nothing is without risk. When I was kid, chicken pox was a normal childhood illness that everyone got. Complications being rare. I don't regret getting chicken pox over the vaccine for chicken pox. I answered that ridiculous question up thread. I don't think we need to vaccinate for everything on the CDC's schedule. Some things are more important then others.
[quote]Your last quote has nothing to do with antibodies. Lactoferrin is not an antibody, Moderator cut: Personal Attack
Quote:
Also, as previously explained to you, the solution for adults is to catch up on any missed vaccines and keep up with boosters.
Thanks for providing a perfect example of how the benefits of breastfeeding are not supported in our culture. Moderator cut: Address points, not posters
Mother nature's method is very effective in spite of your comment. For one, we don't live in turn of the century conditions. We have indoor plumbing, sanitized drinking water, we know to wash our hands, we know a lot more about nutrition and we have greater access to healthy food. People have greater access to doctors and so on and so forth.
From the first paragraph of your link:
Moderator cut: Quoted post edited
The point is, infant mortality has gone way down since 1900. Mother Nature had nothing to do with improved environmental interventions, improvements in nutrition, advances in clinical medicine, improvements in access to health care, improvements in surveillance and monitoring of disease, increases in education levels, and improvements in standards of living.
The point is, infant mortality has gone way down since 1900. Mother Nature had nothing to do with improved environmental interventions, improvements in nutrition, advances in clinical medicine, improvements in access to health care, improvements in surveillance and monitoring of disease, increases in education levels, and improvements in standards of living.
You said what you said about mother nature which was in response to Jo's post about breastfeeding. Mother nature provides the perfect first food, breast milk. Breast milk provides a ton of health benefits to both mother and baby and those benefits can last a lifetime. If you weren't trying to downplay the benefits of breast milk then I don't know what your comment was about. Your link contains true information but it doesn't refute the benefits of breastfeeding, aka mother nature.
In context:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
Those statistics are very disturbing. I nursed my own daughter back in 1985 until 20 months when she wanted to stop. When she was 9 months old and caught a Norovirus (which I myself did not have), she nursed around the clock (produced more milk because she wanted it) and was fine in a very short amount of time. She even gained weight! lol Her bottle fed husband at the same 9 months had to be put in the hospital and on an IV for dehydration for a Norovirus. Probably, again, why my 3 day old breastfed Grandson never caught the household Norovirus. His sick Mom was nursing him.
My daughter is tandem nursing a now 2 month old and a 2 year old. Her Nurse Lactation Consultant told her to always nurse the baby first and from both breasts to get the "first richer" (antibodies?) milk before the Toddler. If the Toddler cannot wait, switch the baby to the other breast and let the Toddler nurse from where the baby previously nursed from. The infant should always get the first "let down". Her Newborn has gained almost 2 lbs. since birth, so he is definitely getting enough milk with his brother still nursing about 4 times a day. Oh, the "woo".
I know this is getting OT to "vaccinations", but I find it amazing how Nature provides to keep the young of the species alive, in a way without medical interventions like hospitals and IV's (infant vaccinations) for sick, dehydrated infants like my bottle fed SIL was.
The decline in infant mortality is unparalleled by other mortality reduction this century. If turn-of-the-century infant death rates had continued, then an estimated 500,000 live-born infants during 1997 would have died before age 1 year; instead, 28,045 infants died (3).
In 1900 in some U.S. cities, up to 30% of infants died before reaching their first birthday (1)."
A lot has changed since 1879. I can't believe you are really using deaths from that era to try and make your claim. So much has changed since that time. See Kat's link for the many examples of things that have changed that have led to longer, healthier lives and our ability to survive illness.
You do have to get sick. Most people can and will survive these illnesses such as rotavirus, measles, chicken pox, rubella, etc. without any complications.
The benefits of breastfeeding go on and on. If a baby gets an illness such as flu while breastfeeding, mom's body will adjust and produce antibodies. It is amazing.
Nothing is without risk. When I was kid, chicken pox was a normal childhood illness that everyone got. Complications being rare. I don't regret getting chicken pox over the vaccine for chicken pox. I answered that ridiculous question up thread. I don't think we need to vaccinate for everything on the CDC's schedule. Some things are more important then others.
It's all about the health benefits of breastfeeding. Sorry your focus is too narrow to get it.
The solution is more and more and more vaccines.
Immediately pre-measles vaccine, 400-500 kids PER YEAR died of complications of measles. 4000 got encephalitis, some with lasting brain damage. 30% had complications altogether. This when the US population was about half of what it is now. Is this what you consider "without complications"? Most kids completely recovered from rubella. In fact, a lot of people never knew they had it. However, rubella was not as ubiquitous as measles and mumps. About 85% of women of childbearing age were immune, leaving a lot non-immune when they got pregnant. The 1963-65 worldwide rubella epidemic was devasting. "At first, cataracts, deafness, and congenital heart disease were the only identifying characteristics of congenital rubella, but, in the spring of 1963, an epidemic of rubella started in Europe and subsequently spread to the United States in 1964 and 1965, leaving thousands of damaged infants in its wake [5]. Studies of these infants revealed that congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) has many manifestations and affects virtually all organ systems [6, 7]. In addition to affecting 3 core organs—the optic lens, the cochlea, and the heart—CRS was recognized as a cause of pathology in the brain, lungs, liver, spleen, kidney, bone marrow, bones, and endocrine organs. This anatomic pathology was associated with encephalitis, mental retardation, pneumonia, hepatitis, thrombocytopenia, metaphyseal defects, diabetes mellitus, and thyroiditis. " Measles | Frequently Asked Questions about Measles in U.S. | CDC The History of Rubella and Rubella Vaccination Leading to Elimination
I already provided a cite for the blue. It's from one of the LLL links I posted a ways back. I think I even directly quoted it or at the very least summarized in my own words.
If you think that was an ad homiens then why not call all posters out on it? There are plenty of examples of them being used in this thread by the people on your side towards me and others. Be fair.
The health benefits of breastfeeding are astounding. Yet, it's not supported in our culture. Most women can breastfeed with support.
Even a very determined mom can find it extremely difficult. One of my DILs was not able to nurse because she had had previous breast reduction surgery.
The other DIL was determined to nurse her first child and did it, but it took months of round the clock nursing and pumping to do it. I do not think she got more than two or three hours sleep at a time until the baby was over six months old, and if she did it was due to a rare supplemental bottle. This time, with her second, who is now two months old, it has gone more smoothly. She was fortunate to be able to take extended leave from work with the first; she will be going back sooner this time.
Some moms have to work; staying home is not an option, and there are some occupations where pumping at work is really not practical, either.
I already provided a cite for the blue. It's from one of the LLL links I posted a ways back. I think I even directly quoted it or at the very least summarized in my own words.
If you think that was an ad homiens then why not call all posters out on it? There are plenty of examples of them being used in this thread by the people on your side towards me and others. Be fair.
No, nothing to support " If a baby gets an illness such as flu while breastfeeding, mom's body will adjust and produce antibodies."
Even a very determined mom can find it extremely difficult. One of my DILs was not able to nurse because she had had previous breast reduction surgery.
The other DIL was determined to nurse her first child and did it, but it took months of round the clock nursing and pumping to do it. I do not think she got more than two or three hours sleep at a time until the baby was over six months old, and if she did it was due to a rare supplemental bottle. This time, with her second, who is now two months old, it has gone more smoothly. She was fortunate to be able to take extended leave from work with the first; she will be going back sooner this time.
Some moms have to work; staying home is not an option, and there are some occupations where pumping at work is really not practical, either.
Thanks for the anecdotes. I can provide some as well but I won't because it's pointless. And thanks for the article by Hannah Rosin, a women who knows nothing about the benefits of breastfeeding for providing yet another example of how our society works together to downplay the importance of breastfeeding and degrade the people who do it.
Our breastfeeding rates are abysmal. The health benefits to both mother and child are huge. Yet we do not support it as a society. With the proper support form society, most women can breastfeed. The fact is, our society doesn't want to offer the proper support because it's not easy enough and no money can be made by supporting breastfeeding. Health is not as big of a priority as we are led to believe. Instead nursing mothers who believe in breastfeeding risk public ridicule and scorn when nursing in public, get called "nazis'" if they dare to talk about it's benefits and have no real support from society in any way, shape or form.
Last edited by MissTerri; 04-23-2016 at 02:01 PM..
Nursing also allows your baby to give germs to you so that your immune system can respond and can synthesize antibodies. This means that if your baby has come in contact with something which you have not, (s)he will pass these germs to you at the next nursing; during that feeding, your body will start to manufacture antibodies for that particular germ. If you are exposed to any bacteria or viruses, your body will be making antibodies against them and these will be in your milk.
Because the mother makes antibodies only to pathogens in her environment, the baby receives the protection it most needs-against the infectious agents it is most likely to encounter in the first weeks of life.
Pathogens in her environment include pathogens passed to her via her nursling.
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Those statistics are very disturbing. I nursed my own daughter back in 1985 until 20 months when she wanted to stop. When she was 9 months old and caught a Norovirus (which I myself did not have), she nursed around the clock (produced more milk because she wanted it) and was fine in a very short amount of time. She even gained weight! lol Her bottle fed husband at the same 9 months had to be put in the hospital and on an IV for dehydration for a Norovirus. Probably, again, why my 3 day old breastfed Grandson never caught the household Norovirus. His sick Mom was nursing him. 