Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (parenting, New York, Virginia)
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Mountain Phoenix school is a Waldorf based school and I'm not at all surprised that they have a high opt out rate. It's still not in the 70% range. The rest of the data doesn't show anything close to the 70% ranger either. The highest opt out rate is 22% in a Charter school in the Pikes Peak Region and that is far from the norm. The vast majority of schools show high compliance rate.
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What other serious issues do you have in mind? Certainly the "Back to Sleep" campaign gets a lot of publicity. The "Never Shake a Baby" commercials are on Channel 9 almost every night during the news, it seems. Ditto the Colorado Quitline (anti-smoking) commercials.
All of those are public education campaigns, not even close to the same level as what has been proposed here (lawsuits, losing tax credits, losing jobs, losing access to a public education). I am ok with education campaigns. Not penalties and punishment.
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In almost every case, the disease is more serious and can cause more harm to health than the vaccine. The only exceptions are medical contraindications, which are very few.
Different people have different risk factors to consider and weigh.
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Do you feel requiring someone to stop at a stop sign or a red light is coercion as well?
It doesn't involve the forcible injection into one's body so I don't consider it at all to be at the same level.
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This thread is not about public transportation or drug addiction.
This thread is about public safety and my comparisons are relevant.
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There are no scientific studies on "the other side". As the Fiddler on the Roof said, "There is no other hand". Some issues are just like that. Please post some studies you think are ant-vaccine, that have been peer-reviewed, not "My child got this shot, and then that happened".
That's ridiculous that you believe this is a one sided issues. There are studies that show problems with vaccines in certain populations. Autoimmune issues are one such issue. Some researchers see reason to believe that the two may be linked. More research needs to be done. I posted a link to study in another discussion with you about this and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. If you didn't read it then, you won't read it now.
It doesn't involve the forcible injection into one's body so I don't consider it at all to be at the same level.
You can be fined and/or go to jail if you don't comply with traffic laws. The old "that's different"!
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This thread is about public safety and my comparisons are relevant.
Your opinion.
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That's ridiculous that you believe this is a one sided issues. There are studies that show problems with vaccines in certain populations. Autoimmune issues are one such issue. Some researchers see reason to believe that the two may be linked. More research needs to be done. I posted a link to study in another discussion with you about this and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again. If you didn't read it then, you won't read it now.
Please repost. I read a lot of stuff, and I don't remember where it all comes from.
"Note that in this database, "compliant" means compliant with either turning in a record or an exemption."
Exemption is the key word in that statement. All but three states in the country have a Religious Exemption. States are not rushing, like California, to eliminate that. What legislation proposed to eliminate that is going nowhere. Freedom of Religion is a very big issue in America, and we can see apart from vaccinations how states are dealing with that one on all religious issues.
I do not think you and others fully understand the divide between the rich and everyone else in America. Money talks. Home school with Private Tutors. Waldorf School? Girl across the street, when my daughters were growing up, went there. The tuition was more than for college. The school won't "wink" and take a Religious Exemption form a parent when they are getting tens of thousands of dollars a year for just one student? Alumni? How much are they donating to the school? Is all this happening with Public School students and their Alumni? Again, Money Talks and will find a way. You can pass laws keeping unvaccinated poor and middle class students out of public schools, but you will have big problems with the Rich, Private Schools, and Home School Tutoring. Do you really think that California's laws are affecting Jenny McCarthy? "Nanny with College Degree for Hire at $100,000 a year". New York Sarcasm, again. Get used to it. You might have a President Trump.
Someone mentioned Prohibition. This is Absurd. Did the Public comply with THAT just because it was the Law of the Land? They found a way to get/make their own booze. How about Adultery Laws? COMPLY because it is the LAW? Hello, Rudy Guilliani? Bad laws that are unenforceable because the General Public will ignore and not comply with them, especially the Wealthy.
Your coercion vaccinations will hurt the poor, not the Rich.
If you wish me to post all the State, and Federal, Vaccination Proposals from 2015 I can do this. You will see that they are not spreading across the country from California, like your "Epidemics".
I didnt read through all 44 pages but we dont vax and i shouldnt be held liable because you put sally set to my susie and assumed anything about her or my parenting choices. YOURE just as liable.
We talk about children, what about adults who dont have vaccines. Do you go around to your co workers asking if they are vaccinated so you dont touch their stapler?
We do all of those things. We have continued to tighten regulations. If you can't drive without a license and liability insurance, why should your children be allowed into a public school without a vaccination certificate?
because ALL states have some sort of exemption that can offer for non/select vaxers. Its not one size fits all.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
We already have vaccine mandates for schools.
Vaccines are not required for school. Thats a myth. You can get an exemption. True for public, private, college, etc.
There is a time when a little fear is healthy. That is why we teach children not to touch a hot stove and not to pet strange animals.
Every vaccine is accompanied by a Vaccine Information Statement listing adverse effects of the vaccine. The person (or his parent) receiving the vaccine is given the chance to ask questions about it.
No, science is not irrelevant. Vaccine refusers just seem to be unable to understand it.
I would put women who refuse vaccines during pregnancy in the same category as those who choose to smoke and drink during pregnancy. It places their babies at unnecessary risk.
Yes, we need a better pertussis vaccine. Did you perhaps miss the earlier discussions about why that is so? Ah, but to you the "Science is irrelevant".
Parents were dancing in the streets when the news came out that the polio vaccine worked. Their fears were very real.
Fortunately, most of the adult population COOPERATES. (See, I can SHOUT, too.)
If most of the adult population cooperates why the need for this? Plan finalized in February 2016 and will give you some statistics on the rates, and the reason for this plan in the first place.
Using the rare case of a Waldorf school having a 70% opt out rate doesn't help your argument. It just shows how willing you are to exaggerate the reality in order to push your agenda. You know that is by far the exception and does not represent the average public school. There is no campaign to preserve vaccination rates. There is a push to increase them and a push to make it more difficult for anyone to opt out or in other words, be able to choose.
It only takes opt out rates of 10% to break herd immunity for measles. The fact is that you can overlie maps of whooping cough cases and vaccine opt out rates and see that the areas with high opt out rates have more cases.
The average is not the problem. The outliers are indeed the problem. It's basic epidemiology. Of course, you have told us you have no desire to learn about basic epidemiology.
Obviously the idea is to make it harder to opt out. One demographic that that encourages to vaccinate is the group that does not object to vaccines but just finds it easier to sign an opt out form than to go to the trouble to get the vaccines.
We have to increase vaccination rates in areas that are under-vaccinated and maintain them in areas where they are currently high enough. Both are needed to preserve herd immunity. keep in mind that herd immunity is what is protecting your unvaccinated child. If you do not want to vaccinate, you should push everyone else to do so in order to continue your child's free ride.
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There is no push like the one for vaccinations for other serious issues that cause death and ill health.
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We have public health initiatives for everything from quitting smoking to getting more exercise to screening for colon cancer.
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Your opinion.
Well, I know I am not paid to post here, and do not believe for a moment that no one here fails to understand who you mean.
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People can weigh their individual risk. Are they at risk from serious complications if they catch the disease? Are there ways to treat it if they catch it? Are they at increased risk from a serious reaction to a vaccine? People are allowed to decide for themselves. It's not your decision to make.
Your risk from a disease may be less than the risk to other people you give it to. Those with true contraindications to vaccines get medical exemptions. You do not get to decide your child is at increased risk just because you think he is at increased risk when nothing in his history supports your belief.
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Coercion is a form of force.
If you were truly convinced vaccines are dangerous, why would you allow yourself to be coerced to get them? Would you allow yourself to be coerced into skydiving if you thought it was too dangerous?
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I suspect you're wrong.
Do you have any evidence to support your suspicion? Many children miss vaccines because it was inconvenient for parents to get them, financial barriers, or a minor illness resulted in a vaccine being delayed, then skipped altogether. With school mandates, parents catch up on those vaccines.
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Adding more bus services is not terribly expensive. Besides, isn't the benefit worth the cost. We'd be saving so many lives as the planet. Why do you want to see people die in car accidents?
I assume you live in a fairly large city. trains and buses will not work for areas like mine with low population density. I do not think there are any buildings over five or six stories in my county, and the ones I can think of are either hotels or hospitals.
At any rate, you have tried to create a diversion from the topic. Automobile accidents have nothing to do with vacccines.
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It shows that the pharmaceutical companies have played and continue to play a huge role in an epidemic of prescription drug abuse. It shows that their motive is profit, not health.
The epidemic of drug abuse can be directly lined to the concept that pain was not being treated properly. Pain was even accorded the status of the "fifth vital sign", like blood pressure, pulse, respiratory rate, and temperature. Doctors cannot win. They either prescribe too much pain medication or not enough. The companies that make the drugs are not to blame. In fact the drug researchers keep trying to come up with products that are harder to abuse.
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There are scientific studies on both sides. I'm not talking about Wakefield here. You are the only one bringing u Wakefield.
I brought up Wakefield because you brought up the concept that much medical research is flawed. Flawed studies (like Wakefield's) eventually get called out. No one bases medical practice on one small study. Yet, that is what Wakefield's supporters are doing.
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BS. There have been studies showing a possible link between autoimmune diseases for instance and vaccines. More studies need to happen in order to find out more. Will that happen? Doubtful. As of now they can just say, there is no evidence. It's easy to not have any evidence when you're not really looking for any.
"... a possible link between autoimmune diseases for instance and vaccines" is not the same as proof of causation. "Possible link" studies generate larger and repeated studies.
Evidence for causation between vaccination and autoimmune diseases just is not there when those larger studies are done. Vaccines do not cause diabetes or MS, for example.
Studies have been done. You just do not want to accept that the evidence does not support causation.
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Of course a BS study can be replicated, especially when it's funded by groups with the same interest. Don't be so naïve, Suzy. Manipulating information to ensure a certain outcome is very easy to do.
If you are going to make that allegation, you need to provide examples. The one that comes to mind for me is Wakefield's. Remember what happened when he was found out? Another is Hooker's attempt to show that vaccines cause autism in black boys. His paper got retracted, too.
The only way your scenario works is if there is a conspiracy involving every vaccine researcher in the world. Do you really want to go there?
Your coercion vaccinations will hurt the poor, not the Rich.
Poor parents are not the ones refusing vaccines. It's mostly college educated women with annual incomes of $75 K or more who are victims of the Dunning Kruger effect.
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Originally Posted by Jo48
If most of the adult population cooperates why the need for this? Plan finalized in February 2016 and will give you some statistics on the rates, and the reason for this plan in the first place.
Most is not all, and some people are just not aware of which vaccines they should have. If their doctors recommend the exam and have the vaccine on hand to give, they will take it.
Why are you so afraid of other people being encouraged to vaccinate? Feel free to get any and all vaccine preventable diseases yourself if you want to. Why discourage others from vaccinating, especially since their doing so lets you hide in the herd?
Vaccines are not required for school. Thats a myth. You can get an exemption. True for public, private, college, etc.
Fortunately, religious exemptions are only available to the fringe cults of various religions. Mainstream religions embrace vaccinations as a public health measure.
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