Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (ethical, heroin, Glenn Beck)
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This is a huge thread that is going to take a while to read... just wondering if anybody had already posted anything like this, regarding the herd immunity? (best visual I've seen)
I had seen that before and forgot about it. It's really cool. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Jo48
People can travel to these countries also. Did President Obama cancel this trip to Cuba just because the CDC warned him about Zika there? No. If he didn't, do you think average citizens will? Will the US Olympic Athletes refuse to go to Brazil? MLB teams go to play in Puerto Rico. Cancel that? Do not let those players come into the country either? Your vaccine will never be ready in time for any of this.
The majority of people infected show no or very mild symptoms. They would not even know they have it. Are you going to test every traveler coming into the country too? Imagine how massive and expensive that would be?
Good luck with your massive vaccination program for Zika, whenever that happens.
I fly back and forth from Florida to NY frequently. Last time at JFK my flight was delayed because we had to wait for the flight from San Juan to arrive. Their Pilot was flying our plane back to Ft. Myers. Several of the passengers from the San Juan flight were continuing on to Ft. Myers also. This flight was in March. Were any of those passengers infected with Zika? Who wold know? There would be a lot of very angry passengers if they all had to be tested for Zika at the airport. Flights from Puerto Rico do not have to go through customs or anything else.
All you are doing is proving my point. Zika is on the way. No, there will not be anyone at the airport testing for it. Travelers need to be aware of the risks, and if I were pregnant I would not be going to any place where they are currently having outbreaks of the disease.
Vaccination strategy is being planned. You do not have to take it. We understand that you do not care if you give Zika to someone else, pregnant or not, even your own family members. Let's hope whatever mosquito control measures you use are 100% effective and you never get bitten by a mosquito ever again.
Mosquito eradication was how malaria was eliminated from the USA after WWII, but DDT is no longer approved for use within the USA, and other insecticides are either much more dangerous or ineffective. Poisoning millions of square miles of the country is no longer politically acceptable.
True, but it helps that there is also effective medication to treat malaria.
I had seen that before and forgot about it. It's really cool. Thanks.
All you are doing is proving my point. Zika is on the way. No, there will not be anyone at the airport testing for it. Travelers need to be aware of the risks, and if I were pregnant I would not be going to any place where they are currently having outbreaks of the disease.
Vaccination strategy is being planned. You do not have to take it. We understand that you do not care if you give Zika to someone else, pregnant or not, even your own family members. Let's hope whatever mosquito control measures you use are 100% effective and you never get bitten by a mosquito ever again.
I don't use any mosquito control measures. The Golf Course I live on sprays all the time. I have my windows shut and AC running just about the entire year in South Florida (hate the heat), unlike those other countries. My Lanai has screens all around. That is my "mosquito control". My childbearing days are long over with.
Any pregnant woman can get her Zika vaccination (years from now), along with her Flu and Tdap shot, and whatever else may be advised by the CDC. That is HER choice, nobody else's, and certainly not mine to tell her what to do.
My children vaccinate their own children, as I did also when they were young. We are on the same page when it comes to the choice of others, especially adults, to make their own choices for themselves. Science means nothing when it come to the Freedom of Choice, although I know you like to quote a lot of Science. Herd Immunity be damned. Protect yourself if you choose to. A different breed of "Anti Vaxxer"? We aren't all of the same "breed" (pun intended) so to speak.
This, folks, in four short words, is the problem which produces the scenario on which the OP is based: those for whom the effect their decision has on others is just not a consideration. They accept the protection herd immunity provides for their unvaccinated selves and family while refusing to contribute to it. Not only do they not want to vaccinate, either because they are mathematically illiterate and cannot understand that the risks of vaccines are far smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent, they actively discourage others from vaccinating, thus destroying the herd immunity that protects them.
If you do not vaccinate and someone else gets sick because you did not, you should be liable for the damage you cause. It may not always be possible to know where a vaccine preventable disease was acquired, but sometimes it can be, especially with measles.
[quote=suzy_q2010;43957779]This, folks, in four short words, is the problem which produces the scenario on which the OP is based: those for whom the effect their decision has on others is just not a consideration. They accept the protection herd immunity provides for their unvaccinated selves and family while refusing to contribute to it. Not only do they not want to vaccinate, either because they are mathematically illiterate and cannot understand that the risks of vaccines are far smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent, they actively discourage others from vaccinating, thus destroying the herd immunity that protects them.
If you do not vaccinate and someone else gets sick because you did not, you should be liable for the damage you cause. It may not always be possible to know where a vaccine preventable disease was acquired, but sometimes it can be, especially with measles.[/QUOTE
Herd Immunity does not only come from the point of a needle, and you know it. The entire concept was hijacked by medicine and Big Pharms from the naturally occurring form of it.
Read what I said in my post. I said anyone can get as many vaccinations as they themselves so choose to. Individual choice. To use my own Grandkids as an example, I would never tell my own daughter NOT to vaccinate her own children. Her choice. However, I would also never tell her she MUST give her kids them and get her own vaccinations during pregnancy or after for herself either. Her decision, and others, to make.
No, Suzy, I am not "accepting the protection the herd gives my "unvaccinated" self, because I have immunity from getting Measles, Mumps, Rubella, and maybe even the Flu over so many years. Not another form of Herd Immunity? I can protect myself, and others with that just as much, if not more so, than that shot in the arm.
Today's Society never wants to get sick or be pain, which feeds the "beast" so to speak. Yes, I do not trust Big Pharms. I've seen too much from working for years at one. If they could pull the wool over the Public's eyes during the 1976 Flu "Pandemic", why won't they do it again, and again? Profit is their main objective, not the good of society.
We keep going over and over the same thing. It is not changing anyone's mind who believes in CHOICE, more so than Herd Immunity. Good luck trying to find the unvaccinated person who gave someone else the FLU, and suing them.
Herd Immunity does not only come from the point of a needle, and you know it. The entire concept was hijacked by medicine and Big Pharms from the naturally occurring form of it.
I have repeatedly (that means over and over and over again) responded to this same comment from you. Everyone who is immune to a disease contributes to herd immunity. That includes people who have had the disease and people who are immune because they have had the vaccine. The purpose of herd immunity is to keep people from getting sick. There is no "naturally occurring form of it" because without the vaccine, everyone who is immune has to get sick in order to become immune.
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Read what I said in my post. I said anyone can get as many vaccinations as they themselves so choose to. Individual choice. To use my own Grandkids as an example, I would never tell my own daughter NOT to vaccinate her own children. Her choice. However, I would also never tell her she MUST give her kids them and get her own vaccinations during pregnancy or after for herself either. Her decision, and others, to make.
We are not talking about your daughter's choice to vaccinate. We are talking about your feeling no sense of responsibility to vaccinate yourself to protect your own grandchildren. I find that abhorrent. I would do anything I could to keep my grandchildren from getting sick, particularly doing what I can to protect them from whooping cough and flu.
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No, Suzy, I am not "accepting the protection the herd gives my "unvaccinated" self, because I have immunity from getting Measles, Mumps, Rubella, and maybe even the Flu over so many years. Not another form of Herd Immunity? I can protect myself, and others with that just as much, if not more so, than that shot in the arm.
Have you had polio? Diphtheria? Pertussis (if you did, the immunity wears off)?
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Today's Society never wants to get sick or be pain, which feeds the "beast" so to speak. Yes, I do not trust Big Pharms. I've seen too much from working for years at one. If they could pull the wool over the Public's eyes during the 1976 Flu "Pandemic", why won't they do it again, and again? Profit is their main objective, not the good of society.
Why on earth would anyone want to be sick or in pain? That's just bizarre. What is even more bizarre is not wanting to keep your child or grandchild from being sick or in pain.
The public health authorities cannot win, can they? If they express concern about a bad flu season and it does not materialize they are accused of being alarmist. If they fail to predict a bad flu season, they are accused of doing a bad job.
You can stop using quotes around "pandemic" as if it is something that does not happen. The word just means the disease is widespread. The 1918 flu pandemic killed millions of people.
Drug companies would make more money treating flu than they do with flu vaccines. You can give up on the "profit" motive. The profit is just not there.
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We keep going over and over the same thing. It is not changing anyone's mind who believes in CHOICE, more so than Herd Immunity. Good luck trying to find the unvaccinated person who gave someone else the FLU, and suing them.
It's certainly possible that you might be able to tell who gave your child the flu. If the only sick person to see your baby before he got ill was granny who refused the flu vaccine and caught the flu, the source would be pretty clear. Of course your child might not sue you for getting his child sick, but he would be justified in being ticked off. Would you reimburse him for medical expenses and his lost time from work to take care of a severely ill infant, who perhaps needs to be hospitalized?
Herd immunity does not require "belief" from anyone to work. It's a fact whether you want to believe it or not. The only issue about CHOICE here in this thread is whether you are willing to accept responsibility if your choice injures someone.
Suzy, I was watching the Travel Channel the other day which was filmed in Tokyo. What surprised me wa how many people walking down those crowded streets were wearing masks out in public. Are we going to come to that too soon, although that might be a better solution for some people than demanding that others get their vaccinations to protect them. I did once sit next to a man and woman wearing masks on a plane. Do that instead if you need to. My husband's coworker stayed home from work because he was afraid he would catch something and bring it back home to his wife who was having chemo. If they had children, should the children has stayed home from school also? There isn't a vaccine for every disease in the world.
Wear a mask out in public like Tokyo does if someone does not want to catch some deadly disease from another person.
It's my vaccinated Toddler Grandson who brings the illnesses home to the Adults in the household, not the other way around. His infant brother does not catch them from him, or from his own mother and father. Think about this. If the child is getting his Flu Shot, but still catches the Flu, why would the Adults think they should get theirs? BTW, he goes to a Mommy and Me type program, where different kids come all the time. So how would you know who to sue? Better to sue the Pharm for a Flu Shot that didn't work, if anyone should be sued.
I don't think I have ever had whooping cough. Maybe my DPT shot in childhood is still working? It's been a very, very long time since I had the Flu with a cough. Maybe the Herd, including my Grandson, has been protecting me from whooping cough, and the Flu.
I prefer Toyko's solution. Wear a mask. You do know that years ago new Fathers in the hospital had to wear masks and gown to hold their own babies? Better solution than requiring them, and their Mothers, to get Tdap and Flu Shots.
Suzy, I was watching the Travel Channel the other day which was filmed in Tokyo. What surprised me wa how many people walking down those crowded streets were wearing masks out in public. Are we going to come to that too soon, although that might be a better solution for some people than demanding that others get their vaccinations to protect them. I did once sit next to a man and woman wearing masks on a plane. Do that instead if you need to. My husband's coworker stayed home from work because he was afraid he would catch something and bring it back home to his wife who was having chemo. If they had children, should the children has stayed home from school also? There isn't a vaccine for every disease in the world.
Wear a mask out in public like Tokyo does if someone does not want to catch some deadly disease from another person.
It's my vaccinated Toddler Grandson who brings the illnesses home to the Adults in the household, not the other way around. His infant brother does not catch them from him, or from his own mother and father. Think about this. If the child is getting his Flu Shot, but still catches the Flu, why would the Adults think they should get theirs? BTW, he goes to a Mommy and Me type program, where different kids come all the time. So how would you know who to sue? Better to sue the Pharm for a Flu Shot that didn't work, if anyone should be sued.
I don't think I have ever had whooping cough. Maybe my DPT shot in childhood is still working? It's been a very, very long time since I had the Flu with a cough. Maybe the Herd, including my Grandson, has been protecting me from whooping cough, and the Flu.
I prefer Toyko's solution. Wear a mask. You do know that years ago new Fathers in the hospital had to wear masks and gown to hold their own babies? Better solution than requiring them, and their Mothers, to get Tdap and Flu Shots.
We are not talking about "every disease in the world". The only issue is those for which there are vaccines. Your "vaccinated Toddler Grandson" is not bringing home measles to the adults in the household; he is bringing home colds and other viruses for which there are no vaccines. We cannot do anything about those.
Yes, others who get the vaccine are protecting you from whooping cough. Flu, not so much, since not enough people take it to produce herd immunity.
If the child has a flu shot, he is, during most flu seasons, much less likely to get the flu. If everyone in the family is vaccinated, everyone is much less likely to get the flu. Suing the company that makes flu vaccine because it did not work when you caught a strain not covered by the vaccine would be asinine. Your even mentioning just shows that either you have not been able to understand why flu vaccine is different or you are being deliberately obtuse.
We are not talking about "every disease in the world". The only issue is those for which there are vaccines. Your "vaccinated Toddler Grandson" is not bringing home measles to the adults in the household; he is bringing home colds and other viruses for which there are no vaccines. We cannot do anything about those.
Yes, others who get the vaccine are protecting you from whooping cough. Flu, not so much, since not enough people take it to produce herd immunity.
If the child has a flu shot, he is, during most flu seasons, much less likely to get the flu. If everyone in the family is vaccinated, everyone is much less likely to get the flu. Suing the company that makes flu vaccine because it did not work when you caught a strain not covered by the vaccine would be asinine. Your even mentioning just shows that either you have not been able to understand why flu vaccine is different or you are being deliberately obtuse.
+ 1000.
I'm going with deliberately obtuse.
Japan?
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.....there is even a cadre of healthy users who wear masks because they think it makes them more attractive, supposedly by emphasizing the eyes, creating an illusion of better skin color or just lending an air of mystery. This usage is called date masuku — “date,” pronounced “dah-teh,” means “just for show.” Others, including celebrities and women who want to run to the convenience store without bothering with makeup, wear masks to hide from public view. There are also consumers who use masks to create a psychological barrier against the rest of the world, either because they are shy, antisocial or simply want to concentrate.
As we all know, you spread the love, when it comes to the majority of infectious vaccine preventable diseases BEFORE you show symptoms.
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The period when an infected person is contagious depends on the age and health of the person. You may be able to pass on the flu to someone else before you know you are sick, as well as while you are sick. Most healthy adults may be able to infect others beginning 1 day before symptoms develop and 5 to 7 days after becoming sick. Some people, especially young children and people with weakened immune systems, might be able to infect others for an even longer time.
Measles is a highly contagious virus that lives in the nose and throat mucus of an infected person. It can spread to others through coughing and sneezing. Also, measles virus can live for up to two hours in an airspace where the infected person coughed or sneezed. If other people breathe the contaminated air or touch the infected surface, then touch their eyes, noses, or mouths, they can become infected. Measles is so contagious that if one person has it, 90% of the people close to that person who are not immune will also become infected.
Infected people can spread measles to others from four days before through four days after the rash appears.
Pertussis? Presents itself in the early stages with "cold-like" symptoms. Can pass it all around from that point on.
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A person with whooping cough can pass it to others as soon as they get cold-like symptoms. They can also pass it up to 3 weeks after they start coughing. If the infected person takes an appropriate antibiotic, they will not spread the germ after 5 full days of treatment.
Your child, nor anyone else, is going to catch Tetanus, Hep B, or Cervical Cancer simply by being next to them in a room. Blood Born Pathogens or through sex. So why are these required for young children simply sitting in a classroom? Are children who already have Hep. B or AIDS banned from classrooms? No, they aren't and you will never know if they have them. If people fear their child catching Hep. B from another child, why don't they also fear them catching AIDS from another child? Both are spread through blood. So you would sue that Hep. B child and not the AIDS child because there is no "preventable" vaccine for AIDS? Do you people also fear an HPV unvaccinated child in the the classroom as well?
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