Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (marijuana, alcohol, benefits)
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This highly unusual and highly disturbing incident is what you are using as reason "why we need to vaccinate kids against HPV"???? The potential that she may have contracted HPV while having sex in the bathroom at school with 24 members of the school football team is probably the least of this girls' problems, worries and concerns.
My post was in direct response to another poster's assertion that you cannot get HPV at school.
The mother has now stated that the girl had been a victim of human trafficking. I surely hope she has been vaccinated against HPV, but if she has not, as a victim of sexual abuse the risk of her getting one or more high risk HPV strains is astronomical. Now she has shared that with each of the boys she had sex with. The reverse is true, the boys have shared with her and through her with each other any strains they may carry.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
I fully understand that there are many sexually active teens but Suzy's use of that specific example to promote the vaccine was absurd.
I don't consider myself to be one who sticks her head in the sand regarding teens and sex. That doesn't mean that I'm going to get the HPV vaccine for my kids as pap smears are an effective prevention tool and the serious adverse reactions to the vaccine that have been reported by so many worldwide are something that I choose to take into consideration in making that decision. Remember that every single one of those girls and their families were pro-HPV vaccine (not "anti-vaxxers") up until their child was harmed and their claims brushed off as nothing more then coincidence. Some have been able to prove a link. Those families and incidents are generally ignored by those in favor of the vaccine.
This girl's mother apparently had no idea about her daughter's sexual behavior. Parents do indeed have their heads in the sand.
The claims of parents that the HPV vaccine has harmed their children have not been "brushed off". Those claims just do not hold up to scrutiny. If everything that parents try to blame on the vaccine was caused by the vaccine, it would show up in the prospective surveillance that has been done. Severe adverse effects just are not happening.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
Regular paps have proven to be an extremely effective tool in preventing cervical cancer. More then half of all invasive cervical cancers are found in women who had never had a pap. 10-20% are found in women who have not had a pap in 5 years. One quarter of cervical cancer cases were in women who had an abnormal pap but failed to follow up. The vast majority of paps are normal and among the abnormal paps, the majority are in the "pre cancer" stage. Paps are a very effective preventative tool when it comes to preventing invasive cervical cancer and deaths from cervical cancer.
Have you ever met a boy with penile cancer? Penile cancer is very rare with 1,500 case per year in the US out of how many boys and men? You can do the math to determine a male's risk. HPV is a factor in less then half of all penile cancers. Men with HIV have an eight fold increased risk. Uncircumcised men are slightly more at risk. Tobacco use is an other significant risk factor (it's a significant risk factor for women as well). Penile cancer is mainly found in men over the age of 50 so if you have met a boy with penile cancer then they were the rarest of rare exception.
You keep harping on Pap smears and ignoring or downplaying the other HPV associated cancers. I get the sense that you have no concept of what is involved in identifying and treating those cervical pre-cancers, either. The Pap smear does not remove them. Treating them is far riskier than any proven side effects of the HPV vaccine, and we are talking about millions of women, not just a few thousand.
Those cases of penile cancer are not a one time occurrence. They are year after year after year. It's not trivial.
You have yet to explain how Pap smears prevent vulvar and anal cancer in women, anal cancer in men, and throat cancer in both sexes.
There are about 14.1 million new HPV cases in the US each year and an estimated $1.7 billion spent annually in direct medical costs to treat conditions associated with genital HPV infection (e.g. warts, cervical dysplasia, cancer). That figure does not include such things as the financial cost of such things as lost time from work. The emotional toll of HPV does not get much publicity, either. Warts are embarrassing. Relationships suffer. Biopsies hurt. Large biopsies can weaken the cervix and cause miscarriages and preterm delivery.
With three doses of Gardasil 9 there is the potential to prevent 90% of those 14.1 million cases, with the associated expense, psychological harm, and deaths due to HPV.
My post was in direct response to another poster's assertion that you cannot get HPV at school.
The mother has now stated that the girl had been a victim of human trafficking. I surely hope she has been vaccinated against HPV, but if she has not, as a victim of sexual abuse the risk of her getting one or more high risk HPV strains is astronomical. Now she has shared that with each of the boys she had sex with. The reverse is true, the boys have shared with her and through her with each other any strains they may carry.
She had been held captive as a sex trafficking victim from the age of 13 to 15 and all you can hope for is that she had been vaccinated for HPV.
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This girl's mother apparently had no idea about her daughter's sexual behavior. Parents do indeed have their heads in the sand.
Are you saying that the mom did not know that her daughter had been held captive and used as a sex slave for the years prior to this incident? As you say, she "apparently had no idea about her daughter's sexual behavior". Did she think her daughter was away at camp for those years????
As for the rest of your post how many times do you want to go round and round about this? How many times can we repeat ourselves? You clearly favor the vaccine and I clearly favor routine pap screenings and both of us can back up why we choose this over that. People can decide for themselves.
She had been held captive as a sex trafficking victim from the age of 13 to 15 and all you can hope for is that she had been vaccinated for HPV.
That's not what I said. I used the incident to rebut the theory that you cannot get HPV at school. The poster I responded to has the impression that kids do not have sex at school.
If she's been vaccinated, then HPV is one STD she does not have so much to worry about. It's just a cold hard fact.
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Are you saying that the mom did not know that her daughter had been held captive and used as a sex slave for the years prior to this incident? As you say, she "apparently had no idea about her daughter's sexual behavior". Did she think her daughter was away at camp for those years????
No, I did not say that. I meant that she was unaware of her daughter's current behavior. The bathroom incident was consensual.
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As for the rest of your post how many times do you want to go round and round about this? How many times can we repeat ourselves? You clearly favor the vaccine and I clearly favor routine pap screenings and both of us can back up why we choose this over that. People can decide for themselves.
I will rebut your argument about pap smears every time you make it, because HPV infections are not just about cervical cancer. You have yet to explain how Pap smears can help with anything other than cervical cancer. Pap smears do not prevent HPV infections. They just help catch cervical precancer before it becomes invasive. The vaccine prevents the infection, and it is necessary to be infected for the vast majority of cervical cancers to develop. It is expensive to diagnose cervical precancer, painful to diagnose and treat, and treatment can cause serious complications, including infertility and sterility. The vaccine will reduce the number of women who have to go through that by up to 90%. In addition, since women with precancer may still be infected, there is a risk of recurrence after treatment, or they can become infected with more high risk strains and start the precancerous process all over again. Finally, you choose to believe internet stories about complications from HPV vaccines that just do not show up in properly conducted studies. The vaccine does not do what you fear it does.
So you can keep saying, "Just get Pap smears." Every time you do I will repeat the information in the previous paragraph. You have nothing to back up just having routine Pap screenings because Pap smears are of no use for anything except disease of the cervix.
Suzy, that girl has far bigger problems than catching Cervical Cancer. I am sure that her being vaccinated is the last thing on her parents minds, while it might be for YOURS. Why do you feel the need to search the internet to discount everything I have to say?
Miss Terri and I believe in individual choice, but I go farther than she does. Suzy, I am your ultimate Anti-Science person. I do not doctor, period. I detest "medical professionals". Vaccinations, physicals, preventive care, and the whole package. My last Pap test was in 1984.
If someone wants to vaccinate for everything possible, get every available test, spend their entire lives going to doctors, I really don't care. That is their choice. It is not mine, and if they happen to feel the way I do, so be it. I understand the parents are under different responsibilities than childless adults, however, you seem to want to take your stance to the adult population as well. This is where you will have an even bigger fight on your hands. Leave people alone to decide what they want to have done to or put into their own bodies, and also, that of their children's.
BTW. my cut finger from 2 weeks ago is fully healed. I am not dead from "lockjaw" despite not having a Tetanus shot in about 60 years.
Suzy, that girl has far bigger problems than catching Cervical Cancer. I am sure that her being vaccinated is the last thing on her parents minds, while it might be for YOURS. Why do you feel the need to search the internet to discount everything I have to say?
Miss Terri and I believe in individual choice, but I go farther than she does. Suzy, I am your ultimate Anti-Science person. I do not doctor, period. I detest "medical professionals". Vaccinations, physicals, preventive care, and the whole package. My last Pap test was in 1984.
If someone wants to vaccinate for everything possible, get every available test, spend their entire lives going to doctors, I really don't care. That is their choice. It is not mine, and if they happen to feel the way I do, so be it. I understand the parents are under different responsibilities than childless adults, however, you seem to want to take your stance to the adult population as well. This is where you will have an even bigger fight on your hands. Leave people alone to decide what they want to have done to or put into their own bodies, and also, that of their children's.
BTW. my cut finger from 2 weeks ago is fully healed. I am not dead from "lockjaw" despite not having a Tetanus shot in about 60 years.
I know you do not care. it's OK that you do not care about yourself. That is your prerogative. What is sad is that you do not care about catching a preventable disease and giving it to someone else, even someone in your own family. Yes, I advocate for adult immunization, too. All of us need to be vaccinated (unless we have actually had vaccine preventable diseases) in order to reduce the risk to people who cannot be vaccinated.
You may choose not to vaccinate yourself or anyone in your family if you wish. Just be aware that unvaccinated children may not be allowed to attend public school. I will continue to rebut the anti-vax woo and nonsense every time I see it on CD.
The child in the bathroom sex article certainly has problems. If she has not had the HPV vaccine she has had the opportunity - either during her captivity or due to her sexual behavior since then - to get an HPV infection that can add to her problems. It's really not a hard concept to understand. It's why every child with no medical contraindications should have the HPV vaccine.
Since you were the one who said that students will not catch HPV at school, do you at least admit you were wrong about that? What about all the kids who did not get caught having sex at school?
Suzy, that girl has far bigger problems than catching Cervical Cancer. I am sure that her being vaccinated is the last thing on her parents minds, while it might be for YOURS. Why do you feel the need to search the internet to discount everything I have to say?
Miss Terri and I believe in individual choice, but I go farther than she does. Suzy, I am your ultimate Anti-Science person. I do not doctor, period. I detest "medical professionals". Vaccinations, physicals, preventive care, and the whole package. My last Pap test was in 1984.
If someone wants to vaccinate for everything possible, get every available test, spend their entire lives going to doctors, I really don't care. That is their choice. It is not mine, and if they happen to feel the way I do, so be it. I understand the parents are under different responsibilities than childless adults, however, you seem to want to take your stance to the adult population as well. This is where you will have an even bigger fight on your hands. Leave people alone to decide what they want to have done to or put into their own bodies, and also, that of their children's.
BTW. my cut finger from 2 weeks ago is fully healed. I am not dead from "lockjaw" despite not having a Tetanus shot in about 60 years.
Well, cervical cancer is one problem the girl doesn't need.
Moderator cut: Off Topic
As far as your cut finger, we've gone back and forth on stuff like this so long, I don't care if you get tetanus. It's not transmissible person to person, so it doesn't matter to me. If you want to play Russian Roulette, go ahead. It will be a great object lesson for your family to watch unfold. It's not a pretty sight, even with modern medicine.
Since California's SB277 was signed into law eight years ago (in June); the Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network (via the CDC) has identified that California now has diagnosed 45% more eight year old's with Autism than any other state in the network.
For the first time, experts are now saying that this is a true increase in prevalence & not related to "better diagnosing". In fact, that theory has now been called a 'misconception'.
Quote:
A common misconception is that better awareness and more availability of services is largely responsible for the rise, but Zahorodny says this was “impossible” because the scope and breadth of increase has been extensive across all subtypes of ASD, from mild to severe and across all demographic groups.
“This is not just a phenomenon of becoming more sensitive to subtly impaired kids,” he says.
So since SB277 was brought up in this thread under the context of the title: "Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases?"
It begs the question ... What happens if the opposite is true?
7% of all eight year old boys in the San Diego area are now autistic. None of the 'preventable diseases' have anywhere close to a 7% mortality rate, especially now that we have such advanced therapeutics. Most of them are completely survivable (and were before) & confer a lifetime of immunity.
Who is liable when 7% of children are now suffering a neurodevelopmental disorder that can cause pain & immunological dysfunction & a mortality risk that is twice as high as the general population? The life expectancy for the severely autistic is just 36 years old. Who is liable for this?
Since California's SB277 was signed into law eight years ago (in June); the Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network (via the CDC) has identified that California now has diagnosed 45% more eight year old's with Autism than any other state in the network.
For the first time, experts are now saying that this is a true increase in prevalence & not related to "better diagnosing". In fact, that theory has now been called a 'misconception'.
So since SB277 was brought up in this thread under the context of the title: "Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases?"
It begs the question ... What happens if the opposite is true?
7% of all eight year old boys in the San Diego area are now autistic. None of the 'preventable diseases' have anywhere close to a 7% mortality rate, especially now that we have such advanced therapeutics. Most of them are completely survivable (and were before) & confer a lifetime of immunity.
Who is liable when 7% of children are now suffering a neurodevelopmental disorder that can cause pain & immunological dysfunction & a mortality risk that is twice as high as the general population? The life expectancy for the severely autistic is just 36 years old. Who is liable for this?
Since California's SB277 was signed into law eight years ago (in June); the Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network (via the CDC) has identified that California now has diagnosed 45% more eight year old's with Autism than any other state in the network.
For the first time, experts are now saying that this is a true increase in prevalence & not related to "better diagnosing". In fact, that theory has now been called a 'misconception'.
So since SB277 was brought up in this thread under the context of the title: "Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases?"
It begs the question ... What happens if the opposite is true?
7% of all eight year old boys in the San Diego area are now autistic. None of the 'preventable diseases' have anywhere close to a 7% mortality rate, especially now that we have such advanced therapeutics. Most of them are completely survivable (and were before) & confer a lifetime of immunity.
Who is liable when 7% of children are now suffering a neurodevelopmental disorder that can cause pain & immunological dysfunction & a mortality risk that is twice as high as the general population? The life expectancy for the severely autistic is just 36 years old. Who is liable for this?
For information sake...
California ranked number one for being most supportive in terms of grants, state laws, and ADDM inclusion. California is currently the only state that has made services and supports for disabilities an entitlement
Also, maybe it begs the question...some of the best universities in the country (and maybe the world) are located in California. Stanford is the leading Research university, and we have Caltech, one of the leading science and engineering higher learning institutions. And that's just a couple of many colleges and universities in California, that focuses on those hard sciences.
Those kind of sciences seem to attract people on the spectrum. They marry, and have children...some of them perhaps on the spectrum?
Colorado and Massachusetts are also very autism friendly. Massachusetts ALSO has MIT. Again...I'm guessing it gets its fair share of people on the spectrum. They marry, have kids, etc. And there's Tufts University, that has an Engineering dept.
Colorado has the Colorado School of Mines, University of Colorado Boulder has a good engineering and biomedical sciences program...
So...I'm wondering...do those states, because of their autism friendly policies, and their insitutes of higher learning being hard-sciences oriented, DRAW IN autistic spectrum people?
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