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I hear you and I am of two minds about this. Let me ask some questions though:
1. Would Americans take these jobs if the pay rate was $12-$15 an hour?
2. Would Americans take these jobs if working conditions were better? For example, what if instead of two fifteen minute breaks and one-half hour for lunch employees were given a full hour for lunch and three fifteen minute breaks? What if other working conditions were improved so that employees could drink a cold beverage after an hour or two of work in the hot sun?
3. Doesn't the market work both ways? For example, shouldn't wages rise when inadequate numbers of workers exist? Its being able to draw on a supply of people illegally in this country that keeps wages in some industries low?
4. Wouldn't these businesses survive by simply raising prices? And, if all the competitors for the business had to do the same thing wouldn't it just apply across the board?
I have trouble buying the notion that someone who runs a business has the right to do it using workers illegally in this country. Everyone else is expected to obey the law. Why not employers?
It wouldn't run across the board because we still import a lot of fruits and veggies. If grapes from Chili cost $2.00 a pound less than grapes from the states, most people are going to buy the Chilean grapes (again Walmart proved this to be true, that most people care more about price than preserving American jobs). But it would be much more than $2.00 a pound more if they were paying $15 an hour. Then the U.S. farms which, especially for smaller ones like ours in NJ are already struggling to make it paying migrant workers, are going to go under within a year. Remember they pay part salary and part housing, while American workers are not going to take a cot and a meal in lieu of extra money.
Aside from that, these are seasonal jobs, where in season, you are up at 4am and working till dark for a couple of months, then you are DONE for the year unless you follow the crops state to state. The Americans who would apply for these jobs would be vagabond types without roots or stability and would probably not even make it trying to do the work.
Actually though on Indeed they have several farm jobs which seemed to be paying around $12 an hour, so I'm not sure the pay is as low as we may think.
I then found this article, about the severe shortage of farm workers in California (I heard on the news fruit was rotting on the vine earlier in the summer). This guy is paying $14.50 an hour and says Americans still don't want to do it: http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-f...s-immigration/ He says some farms are considering moving operations abroad because of their inability to find workers.
So my question what is the market where immigrants are replacing American workers (not talking about companies moving to another country). lol that's another question.
I've lived mostly along the western coast and they are usually working in restaurants, hotels, or as gardeners. They have migrant workers on produce farms in California and on berry farms in Washington.
Since you mentioned a restaurant in particular, here's a true story. A popular local restaurant was bought by a Hispanic family of mixed origins (he's from Texas; she's from Mexico; their kids are American). They immediately went about changing everything in the restaurant, including changing the menu to burritos and other Mexican foods and getting rid of the local servers and using their kids to run the restaurant. Business steadily declined so they tried going back to the way things were when they bought the place. No go. The place has been empty for months but is still open. No one goes in there anymore. Any goodwill they had they lost. They bought a thriving restaurant and broke it in less than 10 months.
There probably was no one thing that ruined it, but a lot of things. They had a strong customer base going when they bought the restaurant but they kept changing things. One of the worst changes they made was getting rid of the local girls who worked as servers. The extended family of all of those servers stopped going into the restaurant and spread the word quickly so their friends and schoolmates and schoolmates' families also stopped going. Since the parents weren't paying their kids to work as servers, they were insulting and rude to the customers. Then there's the food. This was a high end restaurant where the typical plate was $20. Most Americans don't pay that at the local Mexican restaurant. Meanwhile, as business was steadily declining, the parents decided to put in a huge TV and make half the restaurant into a sports bar. The noise alone drove what few customers they had left right out the door.
The most successful restaurants are like families from the back of house to the serving staff and customers. When you break the family you break the business. This family got rid of the serving staff and insulted the customers. Inevitably it broke.
Tell that to the construction industry that was destroyed by illegals being hired over citizens. It's hard to compete with a worker that is willing to work for far less because they don't pay taxes.
They usually don't pay for housing either and that's a huge expense. Imagine not having to pay rent or mortgage or any of those costs...
One thing no one has mentioned is the heat. Most of the jobs that illegals work at are in the sun during the hottest hours of the summer days. In Mexico, every day is hot, but not here. I would guess it's much easier for an illegal to work in the hot sun for 8 hours than an American raised in the US. And with all that melanin in their skin they won't worry about skin cancer or heat stroke as much either.
They usually don't pay for housing either and that's a huge expense. Imagine not having to pay rent or mortgage or any of those costs...
One thing no one has mentioned is the heat. Most of the jobs that illegals work at are in the sun during the hottest hours of the summer days. In Mexico, every day is hot, but not here. I would guess it's much easier for an illegal to work in the hot sun for 8 hours than an American raised in the US. And with all that melanin in their skin they won't worry about skin cancer or heat stroke as much either.
They don't get housing for construction, hey sit in front of HomecDepotbtill they are needed. They get housing for transient traveling jobs like farm work, the housing is a cot in a room shared by others, not an actual house or apartment.
Americans are just as able to sit in front of Home Depot if they choos For a day or two or threes work.
Americans that live in the Southwest and south are just as used to hot sun so I don't think that's really relevant. Middle Eastern people are used to heat too, but they still pump my gas in below zero weather. People from Mexico
also work in winter doing whatever odd jobs they can find.
Again people seem to be thinking of these as real, actual jobs. They work very piecemeal they don't have 40 hours of work a week.most Americans don't want to/can't work 4 days one week for a job then not have work again for 2 weeks. The only Americans I know who could get by with such a job are people like my boyfriends roommate who sits on the couch collecting disability and watching 2 1/2 Men all day. HE could work piecemeal jobs, but he doesn't want to, and probably be a no call no show within the first 3 days.
Ok, first let me give you a bit of background on me because I ask this question honestly to understand this issue better.
although I live in a major US city, we are not on a border with Mexico (which I know is not the only country we supposedly have immigration issues with, just using it as an example). so while we have an nice hispanic population I really could not tell you who is "illegal" or not. I've never heard of Philadelphia having a huge "illegal" issue. So I totally own up to my ignorance in this area,
I do have two good friends who own their own restaurants and one is a farmer. All three are very vocal about the fact that trying to hire folks for the wages they can pay is an issue. my one friends says any person he hires he helps to get work authorization. I cannot prove he does but I have no reason to doubt him. any hoo, for his kitchen staff (washers, bussers, cleaners) he claims even at 7.00 bucks an hour (which is more than the servers make) after a year of heavy advertising he got no takers.
Like most restaurant owners he cannot pay everyone $15.00 hour. He simply would not survive because the bottom line is the cost would be passed onto the customer who would squawk?
So my question what is the market where immigrants are replacing American workers (not talking about companies moving to another country). lol that's another question.
First of all, they are illegal aliens. They have either broken the law by overstaying a visa or entering without authorization. It is unfair to call them immigrants, which is what we call legal immigrants, those with permission to be here.
Anyone hiring illegals is also breaking the law. Should a business have to break the law to survive, they should not be in business. We subsidize illegal aliens that they underpay by paying their emergency medical care, including birthing their anchor babies, move the whole family into government subsidized housing with just one anchor baby in tow. So, we subsidize the business that hires them with our tax dollars so they can put more profits in their pockets!
I would think if all businesses were allowed to break the law, business owners would all be much more profitable. That is not the way it works. And, those that don't follow the law are able to take home more profits. It doesn't matter which laws they break, it is wrong and gives them an advantage that should not exist.
The market where illegal aliens are replacing American workers:
Ask yourselves, how many businesses would be more profitable if they didn't follow the laws. I think anyone caught hiring illegal aliens should have their business confiscated and sold to the highest bidder with the proceeds being given to ICE!
And, yes, I have lived in southern AZ and SE KS where illegal aliens are prevalent.
Believe it or not, a restaurant does not provide essential services. Also, if we put a tariff like we used to on incoming goods, it will not give an advantage to the selling of foreign goods. Don't they teach anything in school these days but "English As A Second Language"?
Last edited by AnywhereElse; 09-09-2017 at 07:24 AM..
When I worked for a cleaning company the best workers were the hispanics. The white and black workers they hired called off, no showed, or came in high.
30 years ago I worked a 2nd job as an office cleaner at night. Every one of the team were American citizens, and all, with the exception of one student, worked it as a 2nd job. We showed up,did the work and did not report for work high. Don't tell me there are jobs Americans won't do, or that every American is a worthless employee.
They don't get housing for construction, hey sit in front of HomecDepotbtill they are needed. They get housing for transient traveling jobs like farm work, the housing is a cot in a room shared by others, not an actual house or apartment.
Americans are just as able to sit in front of Home Depot if they choos For a day or two or threes work.
Americans that live in the Southwest and south are just as used to hot sun so I don't think that's really relevant. Middle Eastern people are used to heat too, but they still pump my gas in below zero weather. People from Mexico
also work in winter doing whatever odd jobs they can find.
Again people seem to be thinking of these as real, actual jobs. They work very piecemeal they don't have 40 hours of work a week.most Americans don't want to/can't work 4 days one week for a job then not have work again for 2 weeks. The only Americans I know who could get by with such a job are people like my boyfriends roommate who sits on the couch collecting disability and watching 2 1/2 Men all day. HE could work piecemeal jobs, but he doesn't want to, and probably be a no call no show within the first 3 days.
Not sure why you feel many jobs that illegals are taking from citizens are piecemeal. In the trades, you have jobs lined up. When one is done, you begin on the next scheduled job. The cheapskates who cruise the Home Depot parking lot picking up illegals to do their work are part of the problem. They are preventing American tradesmen from earning a living.
As far as winter work, there are always indoor carpentry jobs. Masonry includes concrete, terrazzo and tile work that is done indoors. I can't think of any trade that can't be done in some fashion during the winter months. Of course landscaping can't be accomplished with snow on the ground, but nursery and greenhouse work go on all year round.
This country has done an injustice to its citizens by eliminating apprenticeship programs, encouraging every person to go to college instead, and allowing the influx of immigrants to take entry level and skilled trades jobs from citizens.
It wouldn't run across the board because we still import a lot of fruits and veggies. If grapes from Chili cost $2.00 a pound less than grapes from the states, most people are going to buy the Chilean grapes (again Walmart proved this to be true, that most people care more about price than preserving American jobs). But it would be much more than $2.00 a pound more if they were paying $15 an hour. Then the U.S. farms which, especially for smaller ones like ours in NJ are already struggling to make it paying migrant workers, are going to go under within a year. Remember they pay part salary and part housing, while American workers are not going to take a cot and a meal in lieu of extra money.
Aside from that, these are seasonal jobs, where in season, you are up at 4am and working till dark for a couple of months, then you are DONE for the year unless you follow the crops state to state. The Americans who would apply for these jobs would be vagabond types without roots or stability and would probably not even make it trying to do the work.
Actually though on Indeed they have several farm jobs which seemed to be paying around $12 an hour, so I'm not sure the pay is as low as we may think.
I then found this article, about the severe shortage of farm workers in California (I heard on the news fruit was rotting on the vine earlier in the summer). This guy is paying $14.50 an hour and says Americans still don't want to do it: Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Los Angeles Times He says some farms are considering moving operations abroad because of their inability to find workers.
The capitalist system selects some businesses for destruction. Businesses that cannot afford to pay reasonable wages are an example of that. Perhaps, some things should be done overseas? Growing a low profit crop that requires a great deal of manual labor to pick it maybe something that should be done in Mexico or some place in Latin America.
The other thing that occurs to me is that I suspect most illegal aliens don't work in the field of agriculture. I suspect most jobs are in construction, restaurants, landscaping, or child care. These tend to be low wage occupations. However, the hours are more regular and I see plenty of Americans working in these fields. A few improvements in wages and working conditions would make a lot more Americans interested in those fields.
I do think our immigration laws need to revisited and I think there maybe some justification for allowing foreigners to work in some occupations. However, I don't believe that employers have some kind of constitutional right to recruit people from all over the world to work in any job they choose--no matter how bad the working conditions are. (even if we ultimately pay higher prices for some goods and services)
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